Sneaky Template

[daken201]

Hey everyone, got a game coming up soon and i have a problem. I have up to a +2 LA to use on a template but i can only have one template. The problem i am running into is that the template i am thinking about using is only a +1 the dark template from Tome of Magic. HiPS is just to good to be passed up at level 1. So the question is, is there a +2 LA template out there that would offer more for a sneaky stabby kind of character?

[Rebel7284]

Shadow Creature (latest version being in Lords of Madness I THINK) is +2 and is very powerful for a sneaky character.  Dark was supposed to be a tuned down version of it I believe.

Alternatively, a +1 race and +1 template is still a total of +2.  I hear there is a Sandstorm Jackal-like race (marraluk?) that has great sneaking utility

[Akalsaris]

I'd go with Shadow personally - HiPS is great, but permanent 50% concealment out of daylight and DR 5/magic at level 1 is awesome.  Hell, you'll probably make a passable tank for the first few levels with that.

[VennDygrem]

Alternatively, a +1 race and +1 template is still a total of +2.  I hear there is a Sandstorm Jackal-like race (marraluk?) that has great sneaking utility

The Marrulurk is only LA +1, but has 3 racial HD. They're not bad hit dice, really, and the racial traits are awesome, but if he's starting at level 1 then it's not really possible.

[daken201]

Ok the shadow creature is nice, the concealment is amazing but it doesn't give any bonus to hide and i would still have to be out of sight to hide. I think it falls just shy of dark for what i am looking for. also no LA races. just a template.

[VennDygrem]

Ok the shadow creature is nice, the concealment is amazing but it doesn't give any bonus to hide and i would still have to be out of sight to hide. I think it falls just shy of dark for what i am looking for. also no LA races. just a template.

Having Total concealment is, in many ways, just as good as being hidden, if not better (You can even use Shadow Blend to make a hide check since all you need to hide is concealment; effectively, you've got the Hide in Plain Sight that Dark grants, usable in anything less than full daylight-). Plus, Shadow creature can get damage reduction, or fast healing, or several other abilities, and you get more as you increase in level.

If you want bonuses to Hide, just be a Whisper Gnome and you've got your +8 to hide checks right there.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

One level of the ghost savage progression will give you all the sneakiness you need

[Hallack]

I'd say take Dark over Shadow.

Yes, Shadow has more goodies but for a sneaky type I'll take (ex) HiPS over (su) anyday. 

Generally I would only take Shadow over Dark if I knew Anti-Magic and such would be a non-issue.

[PhaedrusXY]

Generally I would only take Shadow over Dark if I knew Anti-Magic and such would be a non-issue.

I've never actually been in a game where it was an issue, barring the very rare encounter that might feature it (of which I've only seen maybe 2-3 in my entire 20+ years of playing D&D). And even then, it was only the spell, which has a 10' radius that you can normally just stay outside of. The only time I've ever seen a "dead magic area" in a game was in a homebrewed module for Neverwinter Nights.

I don't really understand why people are so paranoid about AMFs. Especially on a non-caster.

[Hallack]

Generally I would only take Shadow over Dark if I knew Anti-Magic and such would be a non-issue.

I've never actually been in a game where it was an issue, barring the very rare encounter that might feature it (of which I've only seen maybe 2-3 in my entire 20+ years of playing D&D). And even then, it was only the spell, which has a 10' radius that you can normally just stay outside of. The only time I've ever seen a "dead magic area" in a game was in a homebrewed module for Neverwinter Nights.

I don't really understand why people are so paranoid about AMFs. Especially on a non-caster.

No doubt it has to do with lessons learned from their DMs in previous games.  That is probably my main reason anyways.

[Ed-Zero]

Is it just me or are there almost no templates/races that are actually good at stealth? HiPS is great and all but it doesn't actually raise your stealth.

[Anklebite]

as said before, whisper gnomes. +4 move silently, +8 hide. hard to beat that with a +0 LA race. also has +2 dex, so add 1 more to hide/ms.

[PhaedrusXY]

Is it just me or are there almost no templates/races that are actually good at stealth? HiPS is great and all but it doesn't actually raise your stealth.

I don't know if the OP can use it due to the racial hit dice, but the Skulk is very good at sneaking around. Add on the Dark (or Shadowwalker) template to make it even sneakier.

Skulk (RoD p105)
+4 Dex, –2 Wis, –4 Cha
Favored class: Rogue
• Medium size
• 30’ movement
• 2HD Humanoid (skulk), which grants skill points, Feats, BAB, & Base Save Bonuses.
• +8 Racial bonus on Move Silently checks –and– +15 Racial bonus on Hide check. Lost if the Skulk is wearing Medium armor or heavier.
• Peerless Camouflage – may move at full speed and run without taking a penalty on Hide checks.
• Innate Nondetection – any attempt to use Divination magics on a Skulk requires a Caster check vs. DC 20 to succeed.
• Trackless Path – any Survival check used to track a Skulk has its DC increased by 10.
• +1 Racial bonus on attacks
• Level Adjustment +1



It seems very easy to crank your hide skill up to the point where you can basically never be spotted by almost anything. So no, I don't think there is a lack of sneaky races and templates.

And you can actually play whatever (humanoid) race you want, and use a wand of Alter Self to turn into a skulk and get their huge bonuses to hide and MS on top of your base race.

[Lycanthromancer]

I'm in the same boat as you, Daken. I got +2 LA for free, and I decided to take the Shadow Creature template. Shadow blend is, essentially, free invisibility ("can disappear into shadows"). You have a 50% miss chance, can make hide checks all the time (if you want this ability to work even in full daylight, the Child of Shadows stance from the ToB makes it work), and with a Ring of the Darkhidden (2000 gp, from the MIC), you're invisible to darkvision as well. Maybe get a Darklight Lantern?

[snakeman830]

Is it just me or are there almost no templates/races that are actually good at stealth? HiPS is great and all but it doesn't actually raise your stealth.

It's just you.  Dark Template not only allows you to hide anywhere (dependant on lighting conditions), but also gives +8 Hide, +6 Move Silently.  That's a pretty big boost for stealth.

[Anklebite]

Child of Shadows stance

common misconception, the stance states in the description that you can't do that. sadly.

[snakeman830]

Child of Shadows stance

common misconception, the stance states in the description that you can't do that. sadly.

It says you can't use the concealment to hide, but it does appear as though it activates Shadow Blend.  You might also be able to use the darkness to activate HiPS, since it is no longer full daylight.

[Anklebite]

Child of Shadows stance

common misconception, the stance states in the description that you can't do that. sadly.

It says you can't use the concealment to hide, but it does appear as though it activates Shadow Blend.  You might also be able to use the darkness to activate HiPS, since it is no longer full daylight.

clever. I approve of this.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Is it just me or are there almost no templates/races that are actually good at stealth? HiPS is great and all but it doesn't actually raise your stealth.

Being completely silent and able to fly through/inside walls isn't good at stealth?

[NiteCyper]

1. +1 Shadow template as obvious. I'll have to do more research to find more LA +2 ones because I don't use them.

2. The Dark template is a more "stream-lined" version of the Shadow template, yes. I will try to cite it later on.

"BEHIND THE CURTAIN:
DARK CREATURES
The dark template is designed to be simple and flavorful. You
can easily apply it on the fly to add shadow-based creatures
to the campaign. It’s a simple, streamlined version of the
shadow creature template (see Manual of the Planes page 190
and Lords of Madness page 167).
  The dark creature template should either add +0 or +1 to a
creature’s CR. Some creatures won’t gain much benefit from
the template. For example, a white dragon already has dark-
vision, superior low-light vision, and immunity to cold. It gains
a small increase to its already good speed and the ability to
hide in plain sight. This template won’t appreciably increase
its CR. On the other hand, a creature such as a lion gains
greater benefit and likely merits a +1 increase to its CR.
  Its level adjustment is low, making it a reasonable cost for
PCs. You might allow a player character with a strong connec-
tion to the Plane of Shadow to acquire this template in lieu of
a class level." - ToM160

3. Is this a free (up to) +2 LA template?

4. The best sneaky race is the Beguiler from Shining South.
http://yfrog.com/6zshs60n61beguilerp
http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beguilercolorss60vt5.png
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm

5. re: templates/races good at stealth: see point 4, Ambush Drake, Whisper Gnome, Forest Gnome, Shadow-walker template, Shadow, Dark, Chameleon, Ghost, Lolth-touched, MDM, Mineral Warrior (Stony), Telthor, Primordial Giant, Marrulurk (Marruspawn), Shadesteel or Stained Glass Half-Golem, Warforged Scout?, Tiefling?, Pixie, Brownie, Petal?, Changeling, Strongheart Halfling, Wild Gnome?, Vecna-blooded, Tibbit? (couldn't find one playable),

6. "never be spotted by almost anything"
Curse you, Touchsight!

7. "Dark Template .... allows you to hide anywhere (dependant on lighting conditions)"
No, you still need cover or concealment.

Points are to be refined with citations, e.g. Shadesteel and Stained Glass Golem, Warforged Scout, Tiefling, Petal, Brownie, Wild Gnome, point 7, Telthor, Tiefling, Warforged Scout,