The Fiendbinder Handbook

[Benly]

Saying that Necrotic Tumor usage is a shenanigan is basically DM fiat. Plain as that.

Yes the DM can prohibit anything he/she darn well pleases, but saying "Oh no, you can't use that particular combination because X unbalances Y..." just shows that the DM isn't working hard enough.

Whether it's a shenanigan or not doesn't really matter for this, though.

If it's in, it makes the fiendbinder a relatively worse option once it becomes available because, in combination with planar binding, it replicates, supersedes, and makes redundant the fiendbinder's primary class feature. I'm not saying "you shouldn't recommend Necrotic Tumor in your handbook because only bad people use Necrotic Tumor!", I'm saying that recommending it is questionable because with Necrotic Tumor available, Fiendbinder becomes a bad choice - it will be fine as long as Necrotic Tumor is not yet available in that game due to level, but as soon as the appropriate level for Necrotic Tumor is reached Fiendbinder becomes flat-out inferior to an equal-level member of whatever entry class was used. "Acceptable for some levels, and then the bottom falls out and you're screwed even if you stop taking the class" is not a great place for a PrC to be.

Now, that said, many DMs will run games in which Necrotic Tumor is not available, either because of DM prohibition or because the game is at a lower level than Necrotic Tumor is available at. In those games, the fiendbinder has a niche, and because it is in those games that the fiendbinder has a niche I feel it is reasonable to focus attention for a fiendbinder's handbook on those games.

[Solo]

Take 4 levels of Dweomerkeeper, and voila, your tumors are now Supernatural, and not subject to dispelling.

Are they still subject to chemotherapy?

[Uriel_Ventris]

Saying that Necrotic Tumor usage is a shenanigan is basically DM fiat. Plain as that.

Yes the DM can prohibit anything he/she darn well pleases, but saying "Oh no, you can't use that particular combination because X unbalances Y..." just shows that the DM isn't working hard enough.

Whether it's a shenanigan or not doesn't really matter for this, though.

If it's in, it makes the fiendbinder a relatively worse option once it becomes available because, in combination with planar binding, it replicates, supersedes, and makes redundant the fiendbinder's primary class feature. I'm not saying "you shouldn't recommend Necrotic Tumor in your handbook because only bad people use Necrotic Tumor!", I'm saying that recommending it is questionable because with Necrotic Tumor available, Fiendbinder becomes a bad choice - it will be fine as long as Necrotic Tumor is not yet available in that game due to level, but as soon as the appropriate level for Necrotic Tumor is reached Fiendbinder becomes flat-out inferior to an equal-level member of whatever entry class was used. "Acceptable for some levels, and then the bottom falls out and you're screwed even if you stop taking the class" is not a great place for a PrC to be.

Greater Planar Binding has a limit on duration without Necrotic Tumor. Even giving the command 'Defend me' would fall under the "If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free." stipulation. Defend you to what end, and against who exactly?

The Fiendbinder has no duration without Necrotic Tumor.

I guess that's what you're missing. Necrotic Tumor really only makes it easier to command all of your bound fiends every round, and still be able to function as a character.

Now, that said, many DMs will run games in which Necrotic Tumor is not available, either because of DM prohibition or because the game is at a lower level than Necrotic Tumor is available at. In those games, the fiendbinder has a niche, and because it is in those games that the fiendbinder has a niche I feel it is reasonable to focus attention for a fiendbinder's handbook on those games.

These handbooks aren't written taking any DM prohibitions into consideration; aside from either cross-setting material or Dragon Magazine material.

Libris Mortis is perfectly legal for use by PCs (yes, barring DM prohibitions...can we move past that already...) Not every DM on here has the same prohibitions, so unless we write a handbook that mentions no interesting feat/class feature combinations for the PrC, Necrotic Tumor has a place in this handbook.

[Benly]

Greater Planar Binding has a limit on duration without Necrotic Tumor. Even giving the command 'Defend me' would fall under the "If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free." stipulation. Defend you to what end, and against who exactly?

The Fiendbinder has no duration without Necrotic Tumor.

I guess that's what you're missing. Necrotic Tumor really only makes it easier to command all of your bound fiends every round, and still be able to function as a character.

The indefinite duration is indeed an advantage before the wizard has Necrotic Tumor, at which point he can simply issue to his Tumored minions "do not return to your home plane at the expiration of your service and continue to serve me indefinitely." Yes, this would be an illegal command for Planar Binding to enforce, but it does not have to when Tumor is enforcing it instead. Planar Binding specifies that "Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only so inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came", which means there is a method by which the affected creature can voluntarily choose to remain in your service. This is why I say that Necrotic Tumor supersedes the Fiendbinder's ability when it becomes available.

When NT is not available, the Fiendbinder's ability has the duration advantage over regular Planar Binding, as you mention, and as I also have been mentioning regularly this entire time.

These handbooks aren't written taking any DM prohibitions into consideration; aside from either cross-setting material or Dragon Magazine material.

Libris Mortis is perfectly legal for use by PCs (yes, barring DM prohibitions...can we move past that already...) Not every DM on here has the same prohibitions, so unless we write a handbook that mentions no interesting feat/class feature combinations for the PrC, Necrotic Tumor has a place in this handbook.

I am not saying "You shouldn't mention Necrotic Tumor because DMs will not allow it". I am saying Necrotic Tumor is a problem because in games where it is available, a character with levels of Fiendbinder becomes strictly worse than a character without them from level 13 onwards because he has given up caster levels in exchange for a class feature that is now duplicated and improved upon by a single feat for the non-Fiendbinder. Whether we assume that DMs allow it in the vast majority of games or a tiny minority (I don't know and don't care which one it is, if either), any game in which it is available makes playing a fiendbinder a Bad Idea, because then fiendbinder is equivalent to a class that gives up caster levels in exchange for a bonus feat. Granted, it gets that feat early, so if you're playing a game where you are not going to reach the level where that bonus feat is normally available there is an argument in favor of it.
If a class is only worth playing in campaigns where a specific feat is banned or otherwise unavailable due to level or narrative reasons, I believe that is worth mentioning beyond "btw take this feat because it's awesome".

[Uriel_Ventris]

The indefinite duration is indeed an advantage before the wizard has Necrotic Tumor, at which point he can simply issue to his Tumored minions "do not return to your home plane at the expiration of your service and continue to serve me indefinitely." Yes, this would be an illegal command for Planar Binding to enforce, but it does not have to when Tumor is enforcing it instead. Planar Binding specifies that "Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only so inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came", which means there is a method by which the affected creature can voluntarily choose to remain in your service. This is why I say that Necrotic Tumor supersedes the Fiendbinder's ability when it becomes available.

When NT is not available, the Fiendbinder's ability has the duration advantage over regular Planar Binding, as you mention, and as I also have been mentioning regularly this entire time.

Planar Binding is limited by HD, and as far as I know there is no way around this (barring some 3rd party feat that I could care less about...Kell would probably know though...).

The Bind Fiend ability ends up being limited by CR if you use the adaptation section. I could go check the lists in FC I/II to see which have HD > CR (and still be worth the abilities they have), but I am a little lazy today.

I am not saying "You shouldn't mention Necrotic Tumor because DMs will not allow it". I am saying Necrotic Tumor is a problem because in games where it is available, a character with levels of Fiendbinder becomes strictly worse than a character without them from level 13 onwards because he has given up caster levels in exchange for a class feature that is now duplicated and improved upon by a single feat for the non-Fiendbinder. Whether we assume that DMs allow it in the vast majority of games or a tiny minority (I don't know and don't care which one it is, if either), any game in which it is available makes playing a fiendbinder a Bad Idea, because then fiendbinder is equivalent to a class that gives up caster levels in exchange for a bonus feat. Granted, it gets that feat early, so if you're playing a game where you are not going to reach the level where that bonus feat is normally available there is an argument in favor of it.
If a class is only worth playing in campaigns where a specific feat is banned or otherwise unavailable due to level or narrative reasons, I believe that is worth mentioning beyond "btw take this feat because it's awesome".

A non-Fiendbinder needs Necrotic Tumor more than a Fiendbinder would. Saving actions > those lost caster levels; especially for a Loredrake with Greater Rite (yes, even worse tactics...but you know you'd think about trying this out too )

Not to mention, there is absolutely 0 risk for the Fiendbinder when he/she completes the ritual; he/she could even slap the fiend around for good measure and be perfectly safe. Greater Planar Binding needs a Dimensional Lock in place, and a reliance on a low Will save to work every time.

[Ramaloke]

Alright, you guy's have both said your piece, wrangling back and forth across the thread isn't going to help anymore. Is there anything that is not necrotic tumor related that you two can think of adding?

[Benly]

Regarding class level advancement for fiends, a Fiend of Possession is always fun to have around, and your bound buddies will qualify more easily than most folks' cohorts will. It pays off quickly, too: six levels for the whole class, and even a few levels gives you some nice party tricks.

[manzotin]

this days i've been thinking of an evil conjurer, and come across this wonderful guide: thank you for posting it! It's very non-straight thinking, what i was searching about! Omg-fiend-puppetmaster warning 

I've got a couple of questions:

 - You talk about advancing demons, but is it possible to advance an already summoned fiend, or i have to summon a similiar, more powerful one? That's because my babau it's going to be "outdated" pretty fast even if i equip it.

- I was thinking getting a build like Human Conjurer 3 / Malconvoker 5 / Fiendbinder X
This has several advantages, like malconvoker' "Fury" boost to summons permanent to Binded fiends, and it's ok for the lore and the PC' backgound too, because a malconvoker becomes such after studing a book wich appears to him and that contains the Truename of a fiend.
But i'm worried about skills and talents. Adding bluff to the need-to-cap skills it's a pain, and i'm afraid this build can use all of its power only in higher lvls (15+), wich in our campaigns are rarely played.

- An advice about spell school i should drop due to specialization? I rarely play casters and i'll really appreciate an help here. I'd like to keep all the buff-debuff cheesies.

[Ramaloke]

There are no rules in place for advancing your fiends that are already summoned, so you might have to let them go and get stronger ones as you level up . Id say talk to your Dm about it.

As far as doing Malconvoker + Fiendbinder be aware of A) Alignment Restrictions: the Fiendbinder requires nongood and the Malconvoker requires nonevil, so you are looking at a neutral character.

Fury wouldn't stack with bound fiends (Deceptive Summons specifically only works with Summon Monster'ed summons). Another issue is you wouldn't be able to get level 9 spells if you went all the way to 20, as it Is I'd either go Malcovoker or Fiendbinder, both looses too much caster level IMO.

As far as spell schools to drop if you are going conjurer? Try Evocation (you dont need blasty spells you are doing damage via your summons and there are other blasty good spells in Conjuration for when you must lob a spell), and enchantment (its easily foiled by a variety of spells, creature types and abilities).

-edit-

And then there's the fact that you cant go malconvoker until conjurer 5, so your build would look something more like:

Conjurer 5/Malconvoker 2/Fiendbinder 10/Something 3

[Uriel_Ventris]

With the adaptation section, you don't even need 10 levels in Fiendbinder... You can summon any fiend with CR = ECL-2...

[Akalsaris]

Kudos for doing a handbook on a PrC with awesome flavor and some cool potential =) 

Here's a fun, unoptimized character:

Human Binder 1/Shadowcaster 3/Anima Mage 10/Fiendbinder 6
*Uses the online vestige Zceryll to get Summon Monster every 5 rounds to qualify. 

Of course, the character would be pretty unoptimized, but it would be fun to use all 3 mechanics from the Tome of Magic!

[Waazraath]

Call Forth Fiend (Sp): This is a neat ability you get at 3rd level, it lets you (with a truespeak check) call a fiend as a standard action. It hangs around for one round per fiendbinder level. You can call forth any fiend on the fiendbinder list. You just have to know it's truename.

About this ability: since it mentions that you can bind any of the fiends in the table and it doesn't mention a level restriction, a liberal but imho not too unreasonable interpretation would be that when you get to summon a really big fat demon 1/day. With the usual stuff to increase truenaming checks (item familiar, amulet of the silver tongue) it should be possible to get an ice devil or marilith at level 10 (only for a short while, but still). Especially if you're going the archivist route and have acces to divine insight (SpC), for another huge boost to truename checks (maybe also a nice one for the spell suggestions).

Great you started a handbook about this class btw, it's too awesome not to have a handbook 

[Olo Demonsbane]

Thanks for making this!  I love Fiendbinders, and I'm glad to see a guide for them.

My standard trick for controlling your minions is to give them conditional orders, as is hinted at in the section of orders you are allowed to give them.  Now, these orders can be anything from "Start a Dance of Ruin when I snap my fingers" to "Attack my enemies intelligently from the time I say "Start" in Infernal to "Stop" in Infernal."

You might want to include a short section on boosting your Truespeak check.  If you want to advance your minions' HD, you still want to be able to automatically control them.

[Brackenlord]

What you guys think of this idea...

A commanding familiar! They have the same skill ranks as their master, it means that if they speak they will be just as good at pronouncing truenames, to issue a command he only needs to say the demon truename and voilà the action economy is in your favor again. It seems very acceptable that a familiar wich you can share spells with  would be able to do that, if he's not, commanding the demon to accept "commands" from the familiar seems reasonable.

Before anyone says how largely useless this is when compared to Mother Cyst and whatnot I might remind you that some pople don't enjoy the idea of having an undead tumor and spreading it among his minions.