Mimicing metamagiced spells with Shadow Evo/conj (for free)

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I mean know about it.  Like, a nativee of the elemental plane of water couldn't mimic fireball without knowing of the existence of fire.

[Hallack]

Shadow Conjuration:

Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.

Emphasis on the point of interpretive contention Black Knight and I have had in our extensive offline discussions on this topic.

Shadow Evocation:

You tap energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell of 4th level or lower. (For a spell with more than one level, use the best one applicable to you.)

Much (most of the discussion) has centered around what is counted as a Sorcerer/Wizard spell.

• Is it just spells listed in the books (plus researched spells)
• Is it any possible spell that could be researched (Such as Malcom's Magic Missile from earlier in the thread)
• Is there a significant difference Sorcerer/Wizard list and "your Sorcerer/Wizard list"
• Does a spell have to be in the Sorcerer/Wizard list to be a Sorcerer/Wizard spell?

My contention is this:
The Sorcerer/Wizard list is the Spells Listed in the books plus any researched/known from outside those lists.
     * Thus, the evocation banning Shadow slinger can cast shadow versions of new researched evocations of
        which they learn.  (Learn is knowledge of  or experience with not the SPellcraft check to put in book
        type learn)

Thus, if an Evocation banning shadow slinger witnessed/learned enough of Malcom's Magic Missle then he could Shadow Mimic the spell.  (I think adding a Spellcraft check to understand it would be reasonable but it would be a houserule.)


Sorcerer Spell List

From SRD: A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

From Player's Handbook: A sorcerer casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to bards and wizards), which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (Page 192). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

The Wizard Class has very similar text basically trading out Wizard for Sorcerer in the text.

Emphasis mine as this seems to direct us to what is officially considered the Sorcerer/Wizard Spell list which is given on page 192 of PHB.  But that does not clarify if Sorcerer/Wizard list should be synonymous with Sorcerer/Wizard spell.

[Black Knight]

Here's the real question:

Can anyone explain how an Empowered Magic Missile is not a 4th level or lower wizard/sorcerer evocation spell?

It's prepared in a 3rd level spell slot.  It's of the evocation school.  It can be counterspelled with Magic Missile.  It's DC (which doesn't apply to this particular spell, of course) is the same as a 1st level spell.

The rules do make a distinction between a metamagic spell and a regular spell, but neither keyword is present in the spell description, so my view is that both are allowed, by RAW. 

The Wizard/Sorcerer list doesn't even come into play. 

[The_Mad_Linguist]

It's not a kind of spell in the same way that a Ford Taurus is a car, but a Ford Taurus painted pink, covered in fuzzy dice and on fire isn't.

[Black Knight]

It's not a kind of spell in the same way that a Ford Taurus is a car, but a Ford Taurus painted pink, covered in fuzzy dice and on fire isn't

I need to scrub my eyeballs now to get rid of that image.

[ShadowViper]

Quite possibly.  Again, stupidly overpowered, but I'm not seeing any actual RAW argument against it.  This one might go along with Genesis for game breakingly over the top spells.

JaronK

Same as crafting metamagiced wands.  It's a common-sense house rule that even the TO board use.

TO Board?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Quite possibly.  Again, stupidly overpowered, but I'm not seeing any actual RAW argument against it.  This one might go along with Genesis for game breakingly over the top spells.

JaronK

Same as crafting metamagiced wands.  It's a common-sense house rule that even the TO board use.

TO Board?

Theoretical optimization.  Things like Pun-Pun or the hulking hurler.

[jojolagger]

Can anyone explain how an Empowered Magic Missile is not a 4th level or lower wizard/sorcerer evocation spell?

Because Empowered Magic missile isn't the spell, Magic missile is. Do you see Empowered Magic Missile on the Sorc/Wiz spell list?

[Black Knight]

Can anyone explain how an Empowered Magic Missile is not a 4th level or lower wizard/sorcerer evocation spell?

Because Empowered Magic missile isn't the spell, Magic missile is. Do you see Empowered Magic Missile on the Sorc/Wiz spell list?

Of course not.  But that wasn't the question I posed, either.  Shadow Evocation allows you to cast a sorcerer or wizard spell of the evocation school that is 4th level or lower.  An Empowered Magic Missile fits within that description, which was my original point.

[Senevri]

I think that is correct. I... am not sure if that is necessarily a bad thing. Sure, the PC can use a Greater Shadow Evocation to cast a twinned, empowered magic missile. I would still restrict it to "automatically heightened" effects, so no free twin emp admixture born of three thunders explosive searing delayed blast fireballs.

Personally, one of the best uses for Greater Shadow evocation is shadow contingency. No focus, no components, no casting time.

Shadow conjurations are insane. With a single Greater Conjuration, you can create a Crushing Wall Trap, and set the trigger underneath your opponent.

Heck, I think you could even duplicate  the 20d20 trap from the Tomb of Horrors writeup.

Of course, these still grant will save and SR, as it's a illusion.

Not to mention building entire castles out of Shadow Walls of Stone, and living in the top floor... if your opponents ever make their save, they plummet to their deaths.

*edit* Okay, _probably_ plummet to their deaths.

[Havok4]

Not to mention building entire castles out of Shadow Walls of Stone, and living in the top floor... if your opponents ever make their save, they plummet to their deaths.

Well actually they would not, they would just have a set chance based on the spell of falling through that one casting of the spell and they have to make this check for each casting of the spell. It would still be a good way to dissuade people with true sight from trying to get at you.

[Senevri]

...although I'd probably allow them to fail their will saves, come to think of it. Except the first time.