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Havok4
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« Reply #80 on: December 18, 2009, 08:25:36 PM » |
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Flaws, classes that give bonus feats, dark chaos shuffle abuse, worshiping an elder evil are all ways to get more feats.
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Thistledown Thurbertaut
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« Reply #81 on: December 18, 2009, 08:39:15 PM » |
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Given those options only flaws seem really viable. Is that an option in the PB?
Still wondering if anyone can suggst a more optimal progression for my Pixie-SneakBuckler...
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Thistledown Thurbertaut
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« Reply #82 on: December 18, 2009, 09:05:17 PM » |
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Edit: Nevermind I found it...
New Question...If I want to dip Warblade 1 to take Iron Heart Endurance as one of my maneuvers, does it being classified as "Warblade Level 6" mean I need to be a 6th level Warblade? I have been looking and I can't find a mention to the relevance of levels...
Please see previous Sneakbuckler question.
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« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 09:11:17 PM by Thistledown Thurbertaut »
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Runestar
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« Reply #83 on: December 18, 2009, 09:11:31 PM » |
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New Question...If I want to dip Warblade 1 to take Iron Heart Endurance as one of my maneuvers, does it being classified as "Warblade Level 6" mean I need to be a 6th level Warblade? I have been looking and I can't find a mention to the relevance of levels...
It just means you need an initiator lv of 11. How you get there is irrelevant. |
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A clear conscience is the surest sign of a failing memory.
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Shadowhunter
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« Reply #84 on: December 18, 2009, 09:19:44 PM » |
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It means it is only available to a Warblade, not a Crusader or a Swordsage; and that it's a 6th level maneuver, meaning you have to have an initiator level of at least 11.
So, if you're dipping Warblade 1, to get an initator level of 11, you'll need 20 other levels.
Which isn't doable pre-epic.
Warblades, Crusaders and Swordsages gives you 1 initator level per 1 level gained.
All others give you ½ iniator level per 1 gained.
Hence why you have to wait until lvl 8 with the Swordsage in the SneakBuckler.
3 rogue + 3 swashbuckler = IL 3.
Swordsage 2= IL 2
2+3= 5, just enough to qualify for 3rd level maneuvers, which among others Assassin's stance is one.
You'll see that simply by reading through the Tome of Battles' chapter on maneuvers and such.
IIRC, there's a list somewhere around page 30, but I'm not sure, that says the same thing I've just done.
...preview again, yes, good thing to do.
I'd say go Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 2/Battle Dancer 1/Swordsage 2/Rogue +8 or swap places with the Battle Dancer level and the swordsage ones.
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the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  (A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours) I often have to remind people not to underrate divination. The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote] Binder? You're WelcomeZceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2. Cagemarrow is a GeniusBefore giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice. |
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Thistledown Thurbertaut
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« Reply #85 on: December 18, 2009, 10:02:00 PM » |
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Actually...since the first 4 levels are going to be Pixie (seeing as how I can't go for the -1 Buyoff until 12th level, Tangent: Since Pixies are LA 4 but the Savage Species rules are for 5 levels I am going to ask my DM if can roll the first two levels into one for the purposes of Buyoff.), That rounds down to 2 levels. Hmmm...If I took a level of say Fighter right after that would be 5 levels...divided by 2 is 2.5...would this round up to 3? If so I could add 2 levels of Swordsage right there for my +2 Sneak Attack and make me useful to the party first as an invisble fighter with SLA, then in the later levels progressing in Sneak Attacking and roguery...
So Pixie 4/Fighter 1/SwordSage 2/Battle Dancer 1 (for the AC bonus)/Then Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 8...
If the first 5 levels don't round down I would switch places with the Battle dancer/Swordsage levels.
Another good reason to start with fighter over rogue is that pixies swap out their first d6 hit die for the class die they are using and I am pretty sure my DM is going to house rule that bI get a HD per Pixie level rather than ony 1d6 only for the whole 5 (4) level progression...
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Shadowhunter
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« Reply #86 on: December 18, 2009, 10:28:39 PM » |
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Level Adjustment aren't levels.
They don't count towards anything else than ECL (effective character level) for the purpose of XP and perhaps something else.
Fractions in D&D are per default rounded down.
Switching Battle Dancer and Swordsage would net you no more Initiator levels.
Fighter 1=½ Il, rounded down but a minimum of 1.
Fighter 1/Swordsage 1= 2 levels in non-martial classes= IL 1.
After 2 levels of Swordsage, you'll have an IL of 3, but you need an IL of 5 for 3rd level maneuvers.
Just as you need 5 levels of casting to cast a 3rd level spell.
Starting with Fighter over Rogue for the sake of HP isn't that wise tbh.
Maximum HD at first level means you gain 4 more HP for the loss of 18 skill points, not worth it.
If your DM will let you treat your LA as Racial HD, then by all means go for it.
It's not normal rules, but I wouldn't complain.
Unless I'm missing something here and the Savage Species progression of the Pixie actually have multiple racial HD. In that case, the situation is a bit different, since the only time I've seen "exchange their racial HD for the class-one" has been on monsters that only have 1 HD.
Ok, after checking that progression, a few modifications are in order:
I suppose the pixie levels could count as levels for Iniator Purposes, but I'm not sure.
The skill point comment will be moot, since you already will have a skill point start of 6+IntX4.
...
Actually, I think I better drop this at the moment.
These savage progressions makes my head cloudy -or it could be the fact that it's 04.30 and every smart person is asleep- so I'll let someone else handle this.
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the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with. (A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours) I often have to remind people not to underrate divination. The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote] Binder? You're WelcomeZceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2. Cagemarrow is a GeniusBefore giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice. |
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Thistledown Thurbertaut
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« Reply #87 on: December 18, 2009, 11:36:37 PM » |
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Heh. It's 8:30 here. You must be in Merry Olde Englande
Anyways, Savage Species Breaks down a monster into Racial Levels based on it's ECL.
Others here told me that the whole reason why LA is sub optimal is that it eats into the levels you would have to say level up in Wizard. IOW if I have an LA of +4 then I can only ever get to Wizard 16 in an L20 progression or 17 if LA buyoff is used. Or am I interpreting this incorrectly?
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #88 on: December 18, 2009, 11:40:13 PM » |
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Yeah, that's how it works. Level Adjustments are treated as class levels when determining XP.
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Thistledown Thurbertaut
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« Reply #89 on: December 19, 2009, 01:16:24 AM » |
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Wait...so does that mean, in my example above I *could* actually make it to a 20th level Wizard with a Pixie LA of +4 but everyone else would be 24 level by the time I got there?
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #90 on: December 19, 2009, 01:18:44 AM » |
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Yeah. The issue is that after level 20 you get into the even-worse-than-normal horribly balanced epic rules, where the only way to be a decent caster is to take epic spellcasting, which requires you to have 23 ranks of spellcraft.
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Thistledown Thurbertaut
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« Reply #91 on: December 19, 2009, 01:51:16 AM » |
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Another excellent question: If a feat or something like the Krau sigil says it increases my caster level, is that strictly for determining the power of the spell/invocation or does it mean I actually get to choose and have the number of spells/invocations of a higher level. Thinking about the Fey Power Feat here, but I thought about it also while reading about Krau...
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DerWille
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« Reply #92 on: December 19, 2009, 02:00:15 AM » |
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Only for the duration and power, you don't get those higher level spells early.
Doing that is an extremely debatable trick that gets into theoretical optimization land where the rules may or may not exist and will probably get a book thrown at you. Maybe two.
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Thistledown Thurbertaut
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« Reply #93 on: December 19, 2009, 02:20:52 AM » |
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Cool. I have completed the first of 3 builds I am working on and am pleased to report it turned out fantastic! The nets are such a great resource. Once I have finished the other 2 I will post them all up for peer review and critique! Thanks to everyone who has helped so far!
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Shadowhunter
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« Reply #94 on: December 19, 2009, 07:23:56 AM » |
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Sweden actually, we're GTM+1 IIRC. You're welcome, it's nice to be able to help for once instead of having to be the helped  |
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the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with. (A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours) I often have to remind people not to underrate divination. The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote] Binder? You're WelcomeZceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2. Cagemarrow is a GeniusBefore giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice. |
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Thistledown Thurbertaut
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« Reply #95 on: December 19, 2009, 08:07:15 AM » |
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Sweet Jesus!
My Pixie-Hellfire-Ur-Lock-Disciple was freaking hard to pull off! Ran into some troubles when I realized I needed 6 Warlock levels to qualify for Hellfire Warlock, Which ate into my Eldritch Dsiciple a bit...
Then I noticed that I would have to be 16th level Warlock to be able to switch out my invocations properly for the Greater ones I wanted...I only get 8 total with this build. SO basically I am going to have to check with the DM to let me just switch them when I gain a new invocation slot and not just when it says new invocation (meaning rank)...
Lastly the Pixie Level adjustment and buyoff did weird things to my feats. Starting off at LA 4 the Pixie should have it's 2 bonus feats, 1 each from levels 1 and 3, and 2 from the flaws I took. BUt then when he reaches 12th level he has to buyoff a level so he drops down to 11th...meaning I will get my level 12 feat a bit later than the other PCs...
And Fek! Its 5 am here...more later...
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« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 08:09:16 AM by Thistledown Thurbertaut »
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DerWille
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« Reply #96 on: December 19, 2009, 08:14:21 AM » |
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Hey, you're on the west coast. Where at?
Yeah that's the tricky thing with LA buy offs. Sometimes it's totally worth it to be a lower level than everyone else (Half-Minotaur, I'm looking at you). Just watch yourself in the beginning. I'm curious to what you've come up with.
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Thistledown Thurbertaut
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« Reply #97 on: December 19, 2009, 05:39:42 PM » |
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I'm in San Francisco.
Gah! I just realized I fucked up in two places. One is my DFA didn;t have the initiator levels to do what I wanted to do with Warblade and 2nd I sort of misunderstood how the LA buyoff works so I have to finagle a bit there. Part of the fun I am having with optimization isn;t just about how the build looks at ECL 20 but how to layer things through that make it fun to play along the way and to scale effectively.
I am going to eat lunch and start moving my builds from scratch paper onto word so I can cut and paste them here. And sweet Jesus is this stuff complicated! The number of rules and prereqs and books to keep in mind at once is boggling...
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Thistledown Thurbertaut
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« Reply #98 on: December 20, 2009, 12:36:16 AM » |
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Thistledown ThurbertautPixie SneakBuckling Outlaw Background:Bored by the peacefulness of his woodland domain and seeking more vicarious adventures than the usual pranks and pratfalls of the Faerie community, Thistledown set out on his own. In his travels he came across a Ranger fighting orcs who had invaded his territory. Thistledown became enamored with the skill and grace of the Rangers movements and seeks to perfect his martial skill. He is however still a mischevious pixie and fancies himself somewhat of a highway bandit. He often waylays travelers demanding that they empty their pockets, but much to their surprise is only interested in their pocket lint, loose buttons and safety pins. These he trades to faeries who spin the lint into fine faerie garments in exchange for fermented flower nectar. Character notes:This character is based off of my old Rifts Pixie character and goes by the same name. His personality and speech are similar to Puss in Boots from Shrek 2, he is an upbeat and fun character to play. Build Notes:This is my third attempt (the first two to follow) an in many ways was the easiest and most straightforward to build. Because the DM uses dice rolling for attributes, I am using only his base skill points in this build. So obviously his skills will be higher…I could use some feedback on Skill Optimization though as that is an area have yet to cover…please tell me how I did! He will however if at all possible have a Charisma Score of 20 (+6 racial bonus) so I can use Otto’s Irresistible Dance (as per Savage Species). A High Dexterity (+8), Intelligence (+6), and Wisdom (+4) will be helpful in that order. Strength (-4) is a dump stat. His Shadow Hand Maneuvers are reflavored to be precision nerve strikes or in one case telekinesis (Shadow Garrote). His Dessert Wind Manevers are still fire effects but in this case magical blue-violet faerie fire. All in all there is fantastic synergy between all of these classes, both mechanically and especially flavor-wise! Lastly, I realized at the end I made a math goof…I thought I was going to end up at CL 20 with an odd number of Rogue/Swashbuckler levels for Sneak Attack but I ended up on an even number. I considered maybe an Avenging Executioner, Spellthief or something else to squeeze in an extra die of Sneak Attack. As an odd choice I took the Exemplar PrC since everyone says UMD is so awesome. At L20 he has a base rank of 27+Int modifier for UMD or 29+Int Modifier for scrolls! If anyone has any better ideas or any critiques at all please let me know! Maybe one last level dip into Warblade??? Pixie 3/Fighter 2/Blade Dancer 1/ Sword Sage 2/Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 2/Rogue 2/ Swashbuckler 2/ Cleric 1/Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 2/ Exemplar 1
Starting ECL 5
Pixie 4, Fighter 1:
-Starting HP: 10, BAB: +1, Fort Save: +2 Ref Save: +2 Will Save: +2.
-ACF: Hit and Run Tactics (give up Heavy Armor and Shield Proficiencies in exchange for +2 Initiative and Dex to Damage vs. Float Footed Opponents!)
-Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Magic in The Blood, Darkstalker, Flyby Attack
-Skills: Bluff 8, Hide 4, Move Silently 6, Spot 2, Swim 2, Listen 2, Search 2
Languages: Common, Sylvan
-Pixie Stuff:
+1 Size Bonus AC, +1 Size Bonus to Attack Rolls, + 4 Size Bonus to Hide checks, Land Speed 20, Fly Speed 60 (good), Low Light Vision, +2 to Spot Search and Listen checks, Greater Invisibility at Will, Craft Arrows of Sleep and Memory Loss (as per Savage Species),
Spell Like abilities: Dancing Lights, Detect Chaos/Law/Good/Evil, Entangle, Detect Thoughts, Dispel Magic, Confusion (by touch), Permanent Image (Visual/Auditory), Polymorph Self, Otto’s Irresistible Dance
…all at 3x/Day with a starting caster level of 4 and his Cha modifier to the DC save…
Moving On!
Fighter 2 (ECL 6):
BAB: +2, Fort Save: +3 Ref Save: +2, Will Save: +2
Feats: Mobility, Improved Flyby
Skills: Bluff 9, Hide 5
Battle Dancer 1 (ECL 7)
BAB: +3, Fort Save: +3 Ref Save: +4 Will Save: +2
Unarmed Strike (1d4 Damage), + Charisma Bonus to AC
Skills: Sleight of Hand 4
Sword Sage 1 (ECL 8)
BAB: +3, Fort Save: +3 Ref Save: +6 Will Save: +4
+3 to Initiative, Weapon Focus (Short Sword)
Stance: Island of Blades
Maneuvers: Shadow Garrote, Strength Draining Strike, Bloodletting Strike, Obscuring Shadow Veil, Death Mark, Zephyr Dance.
Skills: Intimidate 4, Sleight of Hand 6
Sword Sage 2 (ECL 9)
BAB: +4, Fort Save: +3, Ref Save: +7 Will Save: +5
+ Wisdom Bonus to AC (Even vs. Touch attacks or while flat footed)
Stance: Assassin’s Stance (Yay! Sneak Attack +2d6!)
Maneuver: Lingering Inferno
Feat! Shadow Blade
Skills: Intimidate 6, Sleight of Hand 10
Rogue 1 (ECL 10)
BAB +4, Fort Save: +3, Ref Save: +9, Will Save: +5
Sneak Attack +3d6, Trapfinding
Skills: Use Magic Device 8
Swashbuckler 1 (ECL 11)
BAB: +5, Fort Save: +5 Ref Save: +9, Will Save +5
Weapon Specialization (Short Sword)
Skills: Diplomacy 4
Swashbuckler 2 (ECL 12)
BAB: +6/+1 Fort Save: +6, Ref Save: +9, Will Save: +5
Grace: +1 Ref Saves, Sneak Attack +4d6
Feat! Daring Outlaw
Skills: Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7
Rogue 2 (ECL 13)
BAB +7, Fort Save: +5, Ref Save +10, Will Save +5
Evasion
Skills: Use Magic Device: 16
Rogue 3 (ECL 14)
BAB: +8, Fort Save: +6 Ref Save: +10, Will Save: +6
ACF: Penetrating Strike (Sacrifice Trapsense for half SA damage to immune creatures)
Swashbuckler ACF: Shield of Blades (Sacrifice designated Swashbuckler Dodge bonus for +2 AC Shield Bonus when attacking with two-weapons).
Sneak Attack +5d6
Skills: Use Magic Device 17, Bluff 10, Diplomacy 10, Intimidate 10
Swashbuckler 3 (ECL 15)
BAB: +9, Fort Save: +6, Ref Save: +11, Will Save: +7
Insightful Strike (+Intelligence Modifier to Damage)
FEAT! Two Weapon Fighting
Skills: Use Magic Device: 18, Move Silently 9
-Level Adjustment Buyoff!-
Pay 15,000 experience and stay at Level 15 when otherwise would have advanced to 16
(ECL 15)
Cleric 1 (Fharlanghn God of Roads) (ECL 16)
BAB: +9, Fort Save: +8, Ref Save: +11, Will Save: +9
Domains (Power Granted): Luck (reroll once/day), Travel (Freemovement 1/Day)
Cleric Spells Level 1 (And can Heal Self a bit when needed!), Rebuke Undead
Skills: Use Magic Device: 19, Move Silently 10
Rogue 4 (ECL 17)
BAB +10, Fort Save: +8, Ref Save: +12, Will Save +9
Sneak Attack +6d6, Uncanny Dodge
Skills: Use Magic Device: 20, Bluff 13, Intimidate 13, Diplomacy 13
Swashbuckler 4 (ECL 18)
BAB: +11/+2 attacks, Fort Save +9, Ref Save: +12, Will Save: +9
FEAT! Great Flyby Attack!
Skills: Use Magic Device 21, Bluff 14, Intimidate 14, Diplomacy 14
Swashbuckler 5 (ECL 19)
BAB+12 Fort Save: +9, Ref Save: +12, Will Save: +9
Sneak Attack +7d6
Skills: Use Magic Device 22, Bluff 15, Diplomacy 15, Intimidate 15
Exemplar 1 (ECL 20)
BAB: +12, Fort Save: +9, Ref Save: +12, Will Save: +11
Skill Artistry (Use Magic Device), Skill Mastery (Use Magic Device)
Skills: Use Magic Device 23, Decipher Script 5, Move Silently 12
Sources Used:
Player’s Handbook
Monster Manual 1
Savage Species
Unearthed Arcana
Drow of the Underdark
Dragon Compendium
Tome of Battle
Complete Warrior
Complete Adventurer
Complete Scoundrel
Lords of Madness
Players Guide to Faerun
Player’s Handbook 2
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« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 12:38:41 AM by Thistledown Thurbertaut »
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cru
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« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2009, 03:09:58 AM » |
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Starting ECL 5
Pixie 4, Fighter 1:
-Starting HP: 10, BAB: +1, Fort Save: +2 Ref Save: +2 Will Save: +2. Fort Save: +2 Ref Save: +0 Will Save: +0 -Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Magic in The Blood, Darkstalker, Flyby Attack Your feat progression is off. You gain feats based on your HD, not ECL. LA is ignored in feats. 1 racial: Dodge 1 racial: Weapon Finesse 1: Magic in the Blood 1 Fighter bonus: ?? ?? Darkstalker (flaws?) ?? Flyby Attack (flaws?) 2 Fighter bonus: Mobility ?? Improved Flyby 3: ?? 6:... ... -Pixie Stuff: ... Otto’s Irresistible Dance Level adjustment +4 (+6 if the pixie can use irresistible dance). http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie... Fighter 2 (ECL 6): BAB: +2, Fort Save: +3 Ref Save: +0, Will Save: +0... Battle Dancer 1 (ECL 7) BAB: +3, Fort Save: +3 Ref Save: +2 Will Save: +0... Sword Sage 1 (ECL 8) BAB: +3, Fort Save: +3 Ref Save: +4 Will Save: +2... Sword Sage 2 (ECL 9) BAB: +4, Fort Save: +3, Ref Save: +5 Will Save: +3... Swashbuckler 1 (ECL 11) Weapon Specialization (Short Sword)Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponSpecialization |
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« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 03:17:24 AM by cru »
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