Character Planning

[PhaedrusXY]

1 flaw, and 1 trait.

[VennDygrem]

But....I love Pixies!   

I've had some people here help me out with build stuff for it, and it seems workable but the idea of a Pixie who decides to become a swashbuckler...I dunno but it just sounds awesome! Darkstalker helps against those foes who would otherwise see him.  As far as I know you mentioned starting at Level 7.  I had one DM who was also concerned about low Pixie Hit Die and we used the Savage Species Progression chart and he just ruled that player characters got 1 racial hit die per racial level.  Perhaps something to consider but I'm not attached to it.

Not sure what a build stub is but you probably mean my proposed level progression.

Assuming a LA Buyoff we would end up with something like Pixie 3, Fighter 1, Swordsage 2, Fighter 1, Battle Dancer 1, and then Rogue and Swashbuckler levels to fill out the rest and a single level dip into cleric a some point along the way.  Do you allow 2 flaws at chargen? 

Phaedrus has it right. 1 flaw, 1 trait.

Sorry, LA is LA. I'd like to avoid Savage progressions if possible. I won't stop you from rolling up a Pixie swashbuckler, but even with Darkstalker you'll still have to be careful. Even if at a disadvantage, enemies can still attack you, and be careful of creatures with See Invisibility or magic dispelling abilities. Also, you are not going in the same group as the SLAthief (sorry, TML!).

So what so you plan for your pixie swashbuckler to do? With so many dips, you're lucky I'm not also enforcing multiclass penalties.
Honestly, it sounds a lot like going with more swordsage would do you better than anything, but hey, it's your build.

[PhaedrusXY]

Also, you are not going in the same group as the SLAthief (sorry, TML!).

So what so you plan for your pixie swashbuckler to do? With so many dips, you're lucky I'm not also enforcing multiclass penalties.
Honestly, it sounds a lot like going with more swordsage would do you better than anything, but hey, it's your build.

Sounds like a sneak attack/Daring Outlaw build, relying on Greater Invis.

[tallan]

I'll be interested in see how the other telepath works out. I sort of hope he's in my party so we can share powers and complement each other. I'm less mind bending, more communications and subtle utility. I could even move more in this direction. He's charming, don't get me wrong, but looking over the other powers available, and my inexperience at being party face, I wouldn't mind not having the role.

[Flay Crimsonwind]

If you're in my party, no worries. Aside from my naturally high charisma and my points in diplomacy and bluff (need to fix my skill points now that I've messed with my levels... and find something spellcasting/binding useful to spend 6k on, aside from a weapon and a lesser crystal of return. binding paimon ftw!), plus possibly binding that crying guy, I should be fine to party face us the hell out of many things...

So, while I'm fixing skills and finding fun items for 6k, what feat can people suggest so that I can boost my binding level through the roof, to pretty much ensure that my +5 (effective binder level; I'm pretty sure I can't take improved binding twice) and charisma of +4 (though I might get a +2 cha item to make it +5)aren't the only things that can nail down any bind I want.... or any person to diplomacise that I want. I'd think that a slightly re-flavored version of Nymph's Kiss would be wonderful. I mean, I am a spellcasting vampire of a noble background with blood from the plane of shadows, I'm sure there's a variation on a feat to make a particularly charismatic guy. What do you think, Venn?

So yeah, basically a done sheet in my signature under Gerand Mytos -  check it out and critique, if you please.

[VennDygrem]

@Flay: You can bind any vestige you're capable of, making the check just waives the influence/apperance and such. Honestly, allowing the influence every once in a while might be more interesting.
----------

As for the character, I suppose the sneak attacking daring outlaw idea isn't bad, and certainly not overpowered compared to some of the other builds. In fact, I was almost worrying that beside a couple nice defensive abilities, it might be a little weak otherwise. Once you nail down the basics, I can work with you on balancing it out.

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

Phaedrus has it right. 1 flaw, 1 trait.

Sorry, LA is LA. I'd like to avoid Savage progressions if possible. I won't stop you from rolling up a Pixie swashbuckler, but even with Darkstalker you'll still have to be careful. Even if at a disadvantage, enemies can still attack you, and be careful of creatures with See Invisibility or magic dispelling abilities. Also, you are not going in the same group as the SLAthief (sorry, TML!).

So what so you plan for your pixie swashbuckler to do? With so many dips, you're lucky I'm not also enforcing multiclass penalties.
Honestly, it sounds a lot like going with more swordsage would do you better than anything, but hey, it's your build.

Hmmm....it migh be better then to wait and see if Smudgy's game has an opening, since he allows two flaws and the LA buyoff...*but* while those things are a bonus, losing a level (likely the cleric dip) isn't so huge.  Mostly the big loss of not using the Savage Species progresion is the loss of being able to use Otto's Irrisistible Dance, which I was *so* looking forward to using.  Alas while I can afford to soak an LA of 3 or even 4, an LA of 6 with no buyoff is just too much.  Oh well...

Befor I go on let me say that while I am not new to the concept of minmaxing (having been an avid Aberrant and White Wolf player for some time), I *am* new to  CO as it applies to the labrynthine possibilities of 3.5.

Furthermore, my wanting to play 3.5 really comes down to me wanting to play this specific character.  Actually I have 3 distinct characters I want to play, one for an Iron Kingdoms game, and the other two are open but something about what I have heard about Eberron makes me feel a more rennaisance/swashbuckling type character would fit in really well.  While I see the necessesity of minmaxing (so that your character can actually pull off what the "fluff" indicates), I just really love the idea of a Pixie who fancies himself a dashing highway bandit and turns adventurer.  For example, he would use his powers and such to hold up caravans and demand people empty their pockets, BUT...he only wants their lint, saftey pins etc.  Kind of an eccentruc character really, similar to Antonio Banderas's Puss in Boots from Shrek 2.  Fun, carefree, likes to drink, flirt, tease and carouse. It is important that he can play with characters who would complement his devil may care mishevious attitude. 

Also while I am taking Rogue levels he isn't a trap finder or pickpocket but a sneak-buckling warrior.

Here is my first build attempt from the minmax forum.  Note I made some mistakes but it should give you the rough overview of what I am going for and you can get an idea of whether or not the power level is appropriate, and not too strong or weak.  I will probably ditch the exemplar and cleric levels, since there will be no LA buyoff and could use better help picking skills for optimal fun and usefulness!

Oh and since I didn't know if their was a spot open I haven't gone through and read everything for here yet, and also know little about Eberron (wikipedia knowledge), but I did download the book so I can read it.  Then again, sometimes not knowing the seting too well is actually more fun...

Thistledown Thurbertaut
Pixie SneakBuckling Outlaw

Background:

Bored by the peacefulness of his woodland domain and seeking more vicarious adventures than the usual pranks and pratfalls of the Faerie community, Thistledown set out on his own. In his travels he came across a Ranger fighting orcs who had invaded his territory.  Thistledown became enamored with the skill and grace of the Rangers movements and seeks to perfect his martial skill.  He is however still a mischevious pixie and fancies himself somewhat of a highway bandit.  He often waylays travelers demanding that they empty their pockets, but much to their surprise is only interested in their pocket lint, loose buttons and safety pins.  These he trades to faeries who spin the lint into fine faerie garments in exchange for fermented flower nectar.

Character notes:

This character is based off of my old Rifts Pixie character and goes by the same name.  His personality and speech are similar to Puss in Boots from Shrek 2, he is an upbeat and fun character to play.

Build Notes:

This is my third attempt (the first two to follow) an in many ways was the easiest and most straightforward to build.  Because the DM uses dice rolling for attributes, I am using only his base skill points in this build.  So obviously his skills will be higher…I could use some feedback on Skill Optimization though as that is an area  have yet to cover…please tell me how I did!

He will however if at all possible have a Charisma Score of 20 (+6 racial bonus) so I can use Otto’s Irresistible Dance (as per Savage Species). A High Dexterity (+8), Intelligence (+6), and Wisdom (+4) will be helpful in that order. Strength (-4) is a dump stat. 

His Shadow Hand Maneuvers are reflavored to be precision nerve strikes or in one case telekinesis (Shadow Garrote). His Dessert Wind Manevers are still fire effects but in this case magical blue-violet faerie fire. All in all there is fantastic synergy between all of these classes, both mechanically and especially flavor-wise!

Lastly, I realized at the end I made a math goof…I  thought I was going to end up at CL 20 with an odd number of Rogue/Swashbuckler levels for Sneak Attack but I ended up on an even number.  I considered maybe an Avenging Executioner, Spellthief or something else to squeeze in an extra die of Sneak Attack.  As an odd choice I took the Exemplar PrC since everyone says UMD is so awesome.  At L20 he has a base rank of 27+Int modifier for UMD or 29+Int Modifier for scrolls!

If anyone has any better ideas or any critiques at all please let me know! Maybe one last level dip into Warblade???

Pixie 3/Fighter 2/Blade Dancer 1/ Sword Sage 2/Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 2/Rogue 2/ Swashbuckler 2/ Cleric 1/Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 2/ Exemplar 1

Starting ECL 5
Pixie 4, Fighter 1:
-Starting HP: 10, BAB: +1, Fort Save: +2 Ref Save: +2 Will Save: +2.
 
-ACF: Hit and Run Tactics (give up Heavy Armor and Shield Proficiencies in exchange for +2 Initiative and Dex to Damage vs. Float Footed Opponents!)

-Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Magic in The Blood, Darkstalker, Flyby Attack

-Skills: Bluff 8, Hide 4, Move Silently 6, Spot 2, Swim 2, Listen 2, Search 2
Languages: Common, Sylvan

-Pixie Stuff:
+1 Size Bonus AC, +1 Size Bonus to Attack Rolls, + 4 Size Bonus to Hide checks, Land Speed 20, Fly Speed 60 (good), Low Light Vision, +2 to Spot Search and Listen checks, Greater Invisibility at Will, Craft Arrows of Sleep and Memory Loss (as per Savage Species),
Spell Like abilities: Dancing Lights, Detect Chaos/Law/Good/Evil, Entangle, Detect Thoughts, Dispel Magic, Confusion (by touch), Permanent Image (Visual/Auditory), Polymorph Self, Otto’s Irresistible Dance


…all at 3x/Day with a starting caster level of 4 and his Cha modifier to the DC save…

Moving On!

Fighter 2 (ECL 6):
BAB: +2, Fort Save: +3 Ref Save: +2, Will Save: +2
Feats: Mobility, Improved Flyby
Skills: Bluff 9, Hide 5

Battle Dancer 1 (ECL 7)
BAB: +3, Fort Save: +3 Ref Save: +4 Will Save: +2
Unarmed Strike (1d4 Damage), + Charisma Bonus to AC
Skills: Sleight of Hand 4

Sword Sage 1 (ECL 8)
BAB: +3, Fort Save: +3 Ref Save: +6 Will Save: +4
+3 to Initiative, Weapon Focus (Short Sword)
Stance: Island of Blades
Maneuvers: Shadow Garrote, Strength Draining Strike, Bloodletting Strike, Obscuring Shadow Veil, Death Mark, Zephyr Dance.
Skills: Intimidate 4, Sleight of Hand 6

Sword Sage 2 (ECL 9)
BAB: +4, Fort Save: +3, Ref Save: +7 Will Save: +5
+ Wisdom Bonus to AC (Even vs. Touch attacks or while flat footed)
Stance: Assassin’s Stance (Yay! Sneak Attack +2d6!)
Maneuver: Lingering Inferno
Feat! Shadow Blade
Skills: Intimidate 6, Sleight of Hand 10

Rogue 1 (ECL 10)
BAB +4, Fort Save: +3, Ref Save: +9, Will Save: +5
Sneak Attack +3d6, Trapfinding
Skills: Use Magic Device 8

Swashbuckler 1 (ECL 11)
BAB: +5, Fort Save: +5 Ref Save: +9, Will Save +5
Weapon Specialization (Short Sword)
Skills: Diplomacy 4

Swashbuckler 2 (ECL 12)
BAB: +6/+1 Fort Save: +6, Ref Save: +9, Will Save: +5
Grace: +1 Ref Saves, Sneak Attack +4d6
Feat! Daring Outlaw
Skills: Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7

Rogue 2 (ECL 13)
BAB +7, Fort Save: +5, Ref Save +10, Will Save +5
Evasion
Skills: Use Magic Device: 16

Rogue 3 (ECL 14)
BAB: +8, Fort Save: +6 Ref Save: +10, Will Save: +6
ACF: Penetrating Strike (Sacrifice Trapsense for half SA damage to immune creatures)
Swashbuckler ACF: Shield of Blades (Sacrifice designated Swashbuckler Dodge bonus for +2 AC Shield Bonus when attacking with two-weapons).
Sneak Attack +5d6
Skills: Use Magic Device 17, Bluff 10, Diplomacy 10, Intimidate 10

Swashbuckler 3 (ECL 15)
BAB: +9, Fort Save: +6, Ref Save: +11, Will Save: +7
Insightful Strike (+Intelligence Modifier to Damage)
FEAT! Two Weapon Fighting
Skills: Use Magic Device: 18, Move Silently 9

-Level Adjustment Buyoff!-
Pay 15,000 experience and stay at Level 15 when otherwise would have advanced to 16
(ECL 15)

Cleric 1 (Fharlanghn God of Roads) (ECL 16)
BAB: +9, Fort Save: +8, Ref Save: +11, Will Save: +9
Domains (Power Granted): Luck (reroll once/day), Travel (Freemovement 1/Day)
Cleric Spells Level 1 (And can Heal Self a bit when needed!), Rebuke Undead
Skills: Use Magic Device: 19, Move Silently 10

Rogue 4 (ECL 17)
BAB +10, Fort Save: +8, Ref Save: +12, Will Save +9
Sneak Attack +6d6, Uncanny Dodge
Skills: Use Magic Device: 20, Bluff 13, Intimidate 13, Diplomacy 13

Swashbuckler 4 (ECL 18)
BAB: +11/+2 attacks, Fort Save +9, Ref Save: +12, Will Save: +9
FEAT! Great Flyby Attack!
Skills: Use Magic Device 21, Bluff 14, Intimidate 14, Diplomacy 14

Swashbuckler 5 (ECL 19)
BAB+12 Fort Save: +9, Ref Save: +12, Will Save: +9
Sneak Attack +7d6
Skills: Use Magic Device 22, Bluff 15, Diplomacy 15, Intimidate 15

Exemplar 1 (ECL 20)
BAB: +12, Fort Save: +9, Ref Save: +12, Will Save:  +11
Skill Artistry (Use Magic Device), Skill Mastery (Use Magic Device)
Skills: Use Magic Device 23, Decipher Script 5, Move Silently 12

Sources Used:
Player’s Handbook
Monster Manual 1
Savage Species
Unearthed Arcana
Drow of the Underdark
Dragon Compendium
Tome of Battle
Complete Warrior
Complete Adventurer
Complete Scoundrel
Lords of Madness
Players Guide to Faerun
Player’s Handbook 2

[VennDygrem]

That's... quite extensive. It still reflects the savage progressions idea, and the other game you built it for, but I get the idea of it.

The "LA is LA" statement merely meant to reflect that i wasn't allowing the savage progression. You can still buy off the LA, but since it's so high you won't be able to until level 12.

[bearsarebrown]

Unless you need the IL for the build, I suggest taking a level of swordsage earlier. As it is, you're pretty useless at level 7.

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

Thanks!  It was my "worksheet" which is why it is detailed level by level.  And class level 12 is ECL 16...sometimes the LA rules get confusing.  Good to know about the buyoff though...prob can dip that cleric after all!

What is IL?  Did you mean improved flyby?  That is a handy one since it avoids getting AoO when I flyby but it isn't essential.  For this game I might do something like:

Fighter 1/Swordsage 2/Fighter 1/Battle Dancer 1/Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 2/Rogue 2/Cleric 1/and then alternate Rogue and Swashbuckler to taste for the final 6...

Is good no? 

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

Also, I am used to very writerly or prose-worthy PbP, with a good emphasis on character development and interaction....where does the group see the balance falling in this game?  As a dashing ne'r do well, I can see my character getting involved in affairs of court and politics, hobnobbing in high society at a certain point and undertaking important missions for the crown (as it were)...

Who would be the other PCs in my group?  Are the groups working against each other?  Will we ever meet and interact or is it really two seperate games?

[VennDygrem]

This is going to be two separate groups running the same campaign. That's going to cut down on paperwork quite bit, though I plan on mixing it up with some slight modifications to encounter design and such, so you can't figure out everything just by peeking at the other group's interactions. The campaign's final conflict isn't set yet, so it may necessitate bringing the two groups together, but not likely. Mostly, I'm interested in seeing how different groups of characters interact with the campaign. I expect to see you guys handle situations differently, which should be interesting as well. I don't want to railroad you guys, so while there will always be important goals to keep in mind, how you go about achieving them will be primarily up to you.

There should be plenty of chance for roleplaying, and a lot of combat situations can be avoided entirely by talking your way out of them, or finding other creative approaches. The more creative you guys are, the more XP you'll land- likely even more than what you'd gain out of the combat encounter.

That said, expect to find yourselves in combat that you can't avoid, especially against any enemies of lower intelligence or who are more predisposed to simply attacking. Very little is as it seems in Eberron, and morals do not run black and white. You may well find yourself allying yourself with a Chaotic Good Red Dragon against a Lawful Evil Silver Dragon, for instance. As such, alignment still exists, but it may not be what you expect. Likewise, you may find that even though someone technically registers as Evil, that it is not in your best interests to attack them, and that they will not automatically want you killed, either.

I encourage you to read up on Eberron, at least as far as pertains to your character and their background.

Thistle, I'll be PMing you about your background. You said you're not very familiar with the campaign setting, so I'll give you a few points that you may want to implement.

Also, IL stands for Initiator Level- This is what governs how potent your swordsage (or other martial adept class) maneuvers and stances are. Likewise, CL stands for Caster Level, ML for manifester level, and so on for similar types of casters or anyone with powers dependent on level.

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

Hmmm....Interesting.  Two groups, same campaign.  Are these alternate dimensions or is it really one world with two distinct groups going after the same prize?  Do you have enough material to take us all the way to L20? 

Ah yes, Initator level.  I am diping swordsage for the maneuvers and especially for Shadow Stance to get a li'l extra sneak attack action.  If you must fight in melee it's always nice to have tactical options aside from just full attacking each round.

Who will be the other players on my team?  I suppose we ought to get aquainted.  Do you run "prologues" for each character to help us immerse in the role before joining the others?  What will bring us together as a team?

[VennDygrem]

You guys are already together as a team, as noted in the General Player Knowledge thread. You've been hired by Bordrek Stonefist, your patron, to find information leading to the legendary artifact known as 'the Maker's Crown.' It's up to each player what their character's motivations are for taking on the job, and you may find that even your teammates might have ulterior motives. I've already spoken to those individuals about this. Generally their background allows for an alternate motive besides fame and riches. These may become apparent over the course of gameplay, but will be secret to begin with.

Remember that you can only take level 1 stances at first level of any martial adept class, so you're going to need to have an IL of at least 5 for Assassin's Stance, which means you'll need to position those Swordsage levels very precisely so that you've got a high enough IL for it. Non-martial-adept classes only count for 1/2 IL, so that Swordsage 1/Fighter 4 is character level 5, but only has an IL of 3, for instance. This is mentioned on page 39 of Tome of Battle.

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

Ah yes, I knew there was a reason for my initial progression. I had forgotten about that part.  Also using the Savage Species allowed the Pixie levels to count so we have to do away with those.  Hmmm...makes it harder to do by 7th level. 

With no Pixies levels to count and needing the second level of SS for AS at an Initiator level of 5, that means I need 6 levels of non Sword Sage before I get there.  Crap.  Hmmm....

Could go Fighter 1, Battle Dancer 1, Swordsage 1, which according to bearsarebrown would make me more useful at 7th level.  Does that sound better?  Then I would have to take Fighter 1, Rogue 1 Swashbuckler 2 and THEN the second level of Swordsage for Assassin's stance.  Add swashbuckler and Rogue levels to taste with the cleric dip thrown in their at some appropriate moment.

Will have to refigure out the FEAT progressions accordingly as well which I am not at liberty to do as of this post.


Must be why I love this game, character creation is so challenging!  Will probably need help with skill selection and Wealth/magic items as well since we apparently start with some...

[VennDygrem]

By the way, where are you getting Battle Dancer from?

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

Ah, that was a helpful suggestion from the CO-forum guys.  It is from the Dragon Compendium (I DL'ed just about every DnD book ever published, please don't hate me!).

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

Which group would I be in and what are the other PCs?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

It's from dragon compendium, it's sort of like a monk except cha-based and slightly more useful.

[VennDygrem]

I'm still working on player rosters.

Battle Dancer looks fine, just a way to put your Cha to work for you. I doubt the unarmed strike will really be put to use, so there's little else to it. You probably won't hit for much damage, but you'll be tough to hit at all. I might even recommend trying to focus your build on stealthy use of AoO's, if you aren't already.

Also, don't be so nonchalant about downloading copyrighted material. This isn't WotC, but it's just as illegal. Just don't say where you got access to your materials and everything should be fine.