Permanent Manifestations

[NeverGetDrunkButStaySober]

Dispel Psionics has a target line of "One manifester,* creature, or object"; Temporal Reiteration has a target line of "You". Same reasoning applies.

* This bit was a copy/paste from Dispel Magic, which allowed counterspelling. Dispel Psionics obviously doesn't.

[Azrael]

READ THE REST OF THE TEXT ON THE POWER

The power never specifically mentions it targets powers active on you like dispel magic/psionics does. Just that the duration of powers on you are effectively extended for one round (assumed to be due to the temporal field which you surround yourself with). It still never mentions targeting anything. Thus its up to multiple interpretations.

If you can find one GM that would rule otherwise let me know.

Yeah yeah yeah, I know, you guys are "optimizers" yadda yadda.

I'm an optimizer too but even I know there's no point in arguing something no DM would ever interpret your way.

Isn't it an optimizer rule to not argue what can be interpreted multiple ways. If there is even a sliver of a doubt that you are incorrectly interpreting something it should automatically be assumed to be interpreted as acting in a way which would be least beneficial to you and most beneficial to the DM. Otherwise, its along the same lines of intentionally lying to your DM about the way something works in order to gain an advantage.

[NeverGetDrunkButStaySober]

READ THE REST OF THE TEXT ON THE POWER

I did. And posted it. See five posts ago. (There's more - an augment allowing for more targets. Staggeringly small difference there.)

The power never specifically mentions it targets powers active on you like dispel magic/psionics does. Just that the duration of powers on you are effectively extended for one round (assumed to be due to the temporal field which you surround yourself with). It still never mentions targeting anything. Thus its up to multiple interpretations.

Are you reading the same text that I am? Because I'm fairly sure that both mention creatures but not powers in the target line of the description block, and yet both explicitly function only on powers if you read their actual power text.

If you can find one GM that would rule otherwise let me know.

Yeah yeah yeah, I know, you guys are "optimizers" yadda yadda.

I'm an optimizer too but even I know there's no point in arguing something no DM would ever interpret your way.

Isn't it an optimizer rule to not argue what can be interpreted multiple ways. If there is even a sliver of a doubt that you are incorrectly interpreting something it should automatically be assumed to be interpreted as acting in a way which would be least beneficial to you and most beneficial to the DM. Otherwise, its along the same lines of intentionally lying to your DM about the way something works in order to gain an advantage.

What are you, some incarnation of risner? If a given DM ruled against this I'd ride to town with my undispellable Timeless Body, thank you very much. Rulings should in general be consistent with one another, not just "always in favor of the DM". Otherwise we'd have silly things like Dragonwrought Kobold NPCs with epic feats or monsters that attack you after they die; that's certainly "most beneficial to the DM".

[Azrael]

Dispel magic -after mentioning the target in the target section- specifically mentions that it targets individual powers in the text of the spell/power. Temporal Reiteration does not do this; thats the difference.

I never said it couldn't be dispelled, I merely said that temporal reiteration does not interact in the same way as dispel psionics does; there are clear differences in the core wordings of each power. Even if you did have a timeless body that was undispellable, its still subject to an AMF/NPF...very easy to get around.

You obviously don't get my point. You can't back up your argument with absolute proof, only references to other similar powers. I cannot do so either. Therefore, I concede that this is up to individual interpretation. When things are up to individual interpretation without absolute proof backing them then any DM will obviously, without question, choose to interpret it in the manner which is most beneficial to him. Therefore, since your interpretation of the way these powers interact will never be condoned by any DM it is invalid and not even worth discussing.

[PhaedrusXY]

Timeless Body does make you immune to your own powers, but strictly speaking Temporal Reiteration is not affecting you. Rather, it is affecting all effects present on you.

The past round does not count as time spent for the duration of ongoing effects on you such as rage, spell duration, and poison. Manifesting this power effectively increases their duration by 1 round.

This same reasoning was used to explain why dispelling effects, despite being targeted at you, would still be able to bring down your buffs.

Can the Timeless Body power be dispelled?

Yes. The Timeless Body power renders you invulnerable to all attacks and powers. However, the power doesn’t protect itself, nor does it protect any other effects currently active on you. Dispel Psionics (or Dispel Magic), even if targeting you specifically, isn’t affecting you—it’s affecting the ongoing powers or spells active on you. Thus, it is unaffected by the protection granted by Timeless Body. Since Timeless Body doesn’t prevent characters from targeting you with attacks or powers (just from affecting you with them), Dispel Psionics can dispel a Timeless Body effect (or any other effects on a character protected by Timeless Body).

Edited for capitalization.

Wow. What a load of bullshit. Do those guys even read what they write? I think this goes in with all the other reasons that CPsi is regarded as a waste of paper. So they're targeting you with a power, and it works to dispel your effects, but it isn't affecting you? WTF   By splitting hairs like this, you can make the rules do whatever you damn well please. They're basically just making shit up at this point, and trying to twist the rules to work the way they think they should, regardless of what they actually say.

[Azrael]

Wow. What a load of bullshit. Do those guys even read what they write? I think this goes in with all the other reasons that CPsi is regarded as a waste of paper. So they're targeting you with a power, and it works to dispel your effects, but it isn't affecting you? WTF  By splitting hairs like this, you can make the rules do whatever you damn well please. They're basically just making shit up at this point, and trying to twist the rules to work the way they think they should, regardless of what they actually say.

Exactly! And when its up to individual interpretation the DM will obviously interpret it in a way which is least beneficial for the player.

I agree, they did a poor job with this book.

Though, I wouldn't want to play psionics without powers like anticipatory strike and synchronicity.

[NeverGetDrunkButStaySober]

Dispel magic -after mentioning the target in the target section- specifically mentions that it targets individual powers in the text of the spell/power. Temporal Reiteration does not do this; thats the difference.

That's a separate thing - it applies to powers with effects distinct from creatures. Unless you'd like to tell me how you can specifically target the Timeless Body effect. (Plus, the FAQ entry states that someone can still dispel Timeless Body if targeting you. Not the power, you.)

You obviously don't get my point. You can't back up your argument with absolute proof, only references to other similar powers. I cannot do so either. Therefore, I concede that this is up to individual interpretation. When things are up to individual interpretation without absolute proof backing them then any DM will obviously, without question, choose to interpret it in the manner which is most beneficial to him. Therefore, since your interpretation of the way these powers interact will never be condoned by any DM it is invalid and not even worth discussing.

Eh, nirvana fallacy. This is up to individual interpretation, subject to consideration of evidence or lack thereof. You've been saying "this doesn't work because I say so" - have you more to support your claim beyond just disregarding mine?

[NeverGetDrunkButStaySober]

Wow. What a load of bullshit. Do those guys even read what they write? I think this goes in with all the other reasons that CPsi is regarded as a waste of paper. So they're targeting you with a power, and it works to dispel your effects, but it isn't affecting you? WTF   By splitting hairs like this, you can make the rules do whatever you damn well please. They're basically just making shit up at this point, and trying to twist the rules to work the way they think they should, regardless of what they actually say.

That ruling predates Complete Psionic, actually. Metamind + Temporal Reiteration just allows it to be silly - sort of like how Manipulate Form was balanced if it wasn't in the hands of players.

[Azrael]

Eh, nirvana fallacy. This is up to individual interpretation, subject to consideration of evidence or lack thereof. You've been saying "this doesn't work because I say so" - have you more to support your claim beyond just disregarding mine?

You obviously don't get my point. You can't back up your argument with absolute proof, only references to other similar powers. I cannot do so either. Therefore, I concede that this is up to individual interpretation. When things are up to individual interpretation without absolute proof backing them then DM will obviously, without question, choose to interpret it in the manner which is most beneficial to him. Therefore, since your interpretation of the way these powers interact will never be condoned by any DM it is invalid and not even worth discussing.

lol, you obviously don't read my posts. My entire point is that none of us can back it up to a definitive yes, or even a 50/50.

What is this FAQ anyway? Is it the same as sage advice because sages are notorious for not being a good source for definitive rulings; as two different sages may give two completely different answers.

Its not in the books, its not in the eratta...that much I know.

[NeverGetDrunkButStaySober]

3.5 FAQ. Seriously, never encountered that? Most of the rulings are perfectly fine and undisputed - the hare-brained ones stand out rather sharply. (See: old Polymorph/template ruling, old Crusader ruling [both now expunged], Hellfire/Strongheart Vest.) The FAQ's purpose (which the hare-brained rulings are the principal violators of) is to clarify the existing rules. WotC didn't make errata for Timeless Body or Dispel Psionics because they didn't feel that such was required.

And I've read your posts. I've presented evidence, cited text by page and line. And then you've rejected it simply out of hand and declared that because there was no evidence, it's up for grabs. In terms of substantiation and clarity, this is somewhere under Dragonwrought Kobolds being able to select epic feats. Which the community agrees is also cheesy, but accepts for silly TO purposes. I'm not going to simply accept these things on faith, either (see: Multiple systems debate), but if the available text supports something I'm willing to say that something is possible. Sane and balanced, not necessarily. But possible, yes.

[bearsarebrown]

Seriously, never encountered that?

  come on guys be nice

[blacklitelust]

Yeah, woah, chill. This forum is meant to help others, not cause arguments. I think, as a DM, I'm just going to pretend I never saw that idea (not to discard it, I simply don't want to pull something out of the air that may cause problems with my players) and slap the hands of any player that brings it to the table.

On the same note, I feel as though this may be an example of Theoretical Optimization, rather than actual Optimization. It works if the DM agrees with you, but should not be attempted in game because it could cause problems amongst the group.

I would like to thank everyone for their input, it has been helpful thus far and any other advice would be appreciated. Also, since it doesn't actually describe Timeless Body this way, is there any way (spell, power, or otherwise) to create a character that doesn't age?

[bearsarebrown]

You could just be an Elan.

[NeverGetDrunkButStaySober]

But, but...

Seriously, though, we probably were getting a bit heated. And you're right that this probably shouldn't be used, not even as a DM, in actual play. But for not aging? I believe that someone made a whole handbook on the topic.

[Azrael]

I have submitted just as much evidence as you have, you just fail to acknowledge it. I have also cited the text (note my quotation marks). But fine, if I cant convince you of that then I submit my second argument. One that you should have thought of yourself...honestly...who's the real one that has a biased agenda...

Font of Power certainly targets YOU and only YOU, it is certainly a "helpful effect," thus, timeless body will cause you to ignore it. Now that's something you can't argue with. You're still wrong, I still win...case closed.

[blacklitelust]

I have submitted just as much evidence as you have, you just fail to acknowledge it. I have also cited the text (note my quotation marks). But fine, if I cant convince you of that then I submit my second argument. One that you should have thought of yourself...honestly...who's the real one that has a biased agenda...

Font of Power certainly targets YOU and only YOU, it is certainly a "helpful effect," thus, timeless body will cause you to ignore it. Now that's something you can't argue with. You're still wrong, I still win...case closed.

And you fail to show a shred of decency, so you LOSE, case closed. 

[Azrael]

lol, the same could be said for you.

Oh the hypocrisy.  

[Dragonamedrake]

Is there a way you could persist or use incarnate on Fusion (8th lvl Egoist power)

[Anklebite]

Is there a way you could persist or use incarnate on Fusion (8th lvl Egoist power)

are you a necromancer? cause you totally just cast raise thread.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Ew thread necroz. A silly thread deserves a silly responce!

Hey ankle. Your typo 'Shal' and sig annoy me (actually I'm not breathing manually, yes that means now). Thought I'd share. You know, in the spirit of the thread.

Hint: using 9th level manifesting is cheating... almost as bad as 9th level casting.