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Author Topic: Can Rattata really drop Orcus in one round?  (Read 4392 times)
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AlienFromBeyond
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« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2008, 04:06:04 AM »

Blood Pulse + falling (and thus tons of squares being left) is hilarious.

Wait a minute, thought coming. Blood Pulse specifies that those affected by it take 1d6 damage for each square it leaves. Does that mean that creatures that take up multiple squares take even more damage when they move?
...Blood Mage is so going to get errata'd.
That'll happen around the same time Blade Cascade get fixed, so we'll see.
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Squirrelloid
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« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2008, 04:46:31 AM »

It should be noted that Bolstering Blood applies every time the affected spell deals damage, which is 1/square for Blood Pulse.  So you can add 2d10 damage to the damage Blood Pulse deals every square (actually equal to whatever you roll to deal to yourself), which is a hefty amount of damage boosting (average 11). 

As to falling - squares are 5' cubes?  So he leaves his footprint in 5' squares for every 5' he falls?  (+1d10/10' damage from the fall!)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 06:42:02 AM by Squirrelloid » Logged

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Commx
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« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2008, 05:15:32 AM »

Ah, excellent, I missed Bolstering Blood completely. Orcus is Gargantuan, so if we push him diagonally, he leaves 7 squares each time, dealing an average of 7*14.5 damage to him. Now, we only need to push him 15 squares to kill him. That should be doable by a Lvl30 Wizard...
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Squirrelloid
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« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2008, 05:39:06 AM »

Ah, excellent, I missed Bolstering Blood completely. Orcus is Gargantuan, so if we push him diagonally, he leaves 7 squares each time, dealing an average of 7*14.5 damage to him. Now, we only need to push him 15 squares to kill him. That should be doable by a Lvl30 Wizard...

Tiefling Wizard/cleric/Blood Mage/Demigod

Starting: 8 Str 10 Con 11 Dex 18 Int 13 Wis 18 Cha

30th: notably 28 Int 28 Cha

Req feats: Initiate of the Faith, Novice Training (Cause Fear)
Nice Feats: Hellfire Blood

Trick:
Bolstering Blood on a Blood Pulse, targetting Orcus
AP for Cause Fear

Cause Fear makes him move his movement + cha mod away from you, or (6+9) 15 squares.  He also avoids "unsafe squares" and difficult terrain while doing so, and as it must be away from you, controlling his direction of travel should be plausible.

(if it isn't enough the first round he's 15+ squares away and movement is painful, and you can Soul Burn to get Cause Fear back, triggering the same Blood Pulse again for another 15 squares.  There isn't really anything Orcus can do against you at that kind of range, and he can't afford to move into range because it would kill him, even assuming you were a mere 15 squares away).
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 05:44:28 AM by Squirrelloid » Logged

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Commx
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« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2008, 06:06:50 AM »

That settles it that, we (well, mostly you...) can kill Orcus too, and better than those persons on the other board. Big Grin And we don't even need to use any Dailys for it. The only thing that would be nice is a third standard action to make certain that we can do it in one turn, even if we can't move him diagonally.
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Squirrelloid
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« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2008, 06:48:18 AM »

That settles it that, we (well, mostly you...) can kill Orcus too, and better than those persons on the other board. Big Grin And we don't even need to use any Dailys for it. The only thing that would be nice is a third standard action to make certain that we can do it in one turn, even if we can't move him diagonally.

I'm not sure how much better.  Hitting is actually a serious problem without a party's help.  Ie, at level 30 we have:

+31 = +9 int + 15 level + 6 item + 1 hellfire blood, and we need to hit his 49 Will defense with both Cause Fear and Blood Pulse.  We can probably snag invisibility for CA one of those attacks with a move action (or a cloak of invisibility for invisibility we can attack with).

We really want a Divine Oracle to drop Good Omens on the party (+5 to hit, no criticals - who cares), and a Tactical Warlord/Battle Captain/Demigod with a maxxed int (+9) to Inspiring Word us for another +9 to hit, letting us hit Orcus most of the time.  This also requires two +6 implements (admittedly doable, but mildly painful).  Assuming all that and CA, we only miss on a '1'.

So really, as a member of a party, they pump us up and we shut orcus down permanently.  But doing it alone isn't really probable.  Of course, that just means they can take down Orcus's cronies while we deal with the big boy, and they'll probably leave a piece of the action for us.
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Squirrelloid
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« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2008, 05:39:31 PM »

I reworked the build a little because Cause Fear hits with wisdom, and considered party optimization for this trick as well. Posted on Gleemax CO Boards
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Sunic_Flames
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« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2008, 05:46:14 PM »

No, you're all wrong.

It's this:

Level 1 Rattata @ Focus Sash
Endeavor
Quick Attack
[insert move]
[insert move]

Goes like this:

Enemy whatever uses attack!
Rattata hung on using its Focus Sash!
Rattata used Endeavor!
Enemy now has the same HP as Rattata (1).
Rattata used Quick Attack!
Enemy whatever fainted!
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Farodin
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« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2008, 01:21:16 PM »

About the Rattata build

Deadly trickster can force a natural one once a day, so the tail lash is not that much of a problem. Furthermore, the build has plenty of rerolls to make sure Imperiling Strike hits. As far as I can tell it does have a very good chance at defeating Orcus (1 on 1).

More Bloodmage insanity:

Quote from: PHB
You can apply the enhancement bonus of an implement to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of any of your powers from that class that have the implement keyword.

All damage rolls, for every square left... That's an extra 6 damage above Bolstering Blood.

Now, maybe we can make it only Int based.

Slides, Pushes and Pulls specifically state you can not move the target vertically. Forced teleportation does not. As far as I see you can teleport the target of Elemental Maw to any square within 20, including those up in the air. The target is also knocked prone, meaning even if it has a fly speed, it floats down again, Taking the Blood Pulse damage.

Teleporting people in the air is also fun without Bloodmage just for falling damage btw, look at Maelstrom of Chaos (Spellstorm Mage) for example.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 01:24:25 PM by Farodin » Logged

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AlienFromBeyond
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« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2008, 01:46:29 PM »

About the Rattata build

Deadly trickster can force a natural one once a day, so the tail lash is not that much of a problem. Furthermore, the build has plenty of rerolls to make sure Imperiling Strike hits. As far as I can tell it does have a very good chance at defeating Orcus (1 on 1).

More Bloodmage insanity:

Quote from: PHB
You can apply the enhancement bonus of an implement to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of any of your powers from that class that have the implement keyword.

All damage rolls, for every square left... That's an extra 6 damage above Bolstering Blood.

Now, maybe we can make it only Int based.

Slides, Pushes and Pulls specifically state you can not move the target vertically. Forced teleportation does not. As far as I see you can teleport the target of Elemental Maw to any square within 20, including those up in the air. The target is also knocked prone, meaning even if it has a fly speed, it floats down again, Taking the Blood Pulse damage.

Teleporting people in the air is also fun without Bloodmage just for falling damage btw, look at Maelstrom of Chaos (Spellstorm Mage) for example.
God, can we break Blood Pulse any more?
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Squash Monster
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« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2008, 03:53:14 PM »

Okay, that's really impressive.

Gargantuan characters are 4x4x4 in size, right? That's 4*4*4 squares left for the initial teleport, plus 16*4*4 squares left for falling, for a total of 320 squares left.  So, int+322d6+640d10 damage, or an average of 4647+int.  Plus the 12d6+2int for hitting with Elemental Maw.

Well done.
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munin
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« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2008, 08:25:01 PM »

Okay, that's really impressive.

Gargantuan characters are 4x4x4 in size, right? That's 4*4*4 squares left for the initial teleport, plus 16*4*4 squares left for falling, for a total of 320 squares left.  So, int+322d6+640d10 damage, or an average of 4647+int.  Plus the 12d6+2int for hitting with Elemental Maw.

Well done.

And to think, that doesn't even account for impact damage from falling.
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« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2008, 08:32:36 PM »

As answered by Joe at Customer Service, Large or larger creatures only suffer 1d6 of damage for each space of movement.  Falling is also said to be entirely DM Fiat.
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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2008, 05:12:39 PM »

On Rattata: you guys forget that if Orcus is taken by surprise (read: sneak up on him), not only is there combat advantage, but he can't take immediate actions/reactions. So no Tail Lash. This means initiative isn't an issue, although it does mean you're going to have to force Orcus' 1 to be a Perception check. Alternatively, if you're able to go invisible for whatever reason, use that instead to approach him (Orcus doesn't have any means to see invisible foes approaching, though his nasty friends might). If there are no opponents with a Perception check as high as or higher than Orcus, Kenshiro CAN finish him off.

Of course, he'd be dead after that from all the other nasties ganging up on him.

On Blood Pulse: nope, doesn't get any more broken than that.
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