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DavidWL
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« on: November 10, 2009, 03:34:48 AM » |
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IntroThere was an old thread which ended up being about running characters through a gauntlet of challenges http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864514/Examples_of_overpowered_castersIt was a series of encounters designed for a party of level 2, level 3, level 4, etc. The idea being that a single character who can solo a varied series of encounters designed for a whole party (and possibly a higher level) is doing quite well! Can we make the below build do that? BuildWizard 1 Specialist (Transmutation) / Focused Specialist Trait) spellgifted (Transmutation) H) Otherworldly F) Assume Supernatural Ability (Nightmare - Astral Projection / Etherealness) F) Precocious Apprentice (Alter Self) 1) Reserves of strength Spells: Alter Self, Summon Monster 1, Unseen Servant, power word: pain Trick - Alter Self SpecialistCL = 1 (Wizard) + 3 (Reserves of Strength) + 1 (spellgifted) + 1 (Something - see below) = 6 Otherwordly gives him the outsider type, allowing him to turn into outsiders Reserves of strength lets him break CL cap of 5 on Alter Self, and instead get up to 8 (although at 1st level I've only gotten to 5 or 6) Can cast alter self most days, with a 1 hour duration, and take the form of a nightmare (including the Astral Projection and Etherealness). This lets him adventure with virtually no risk of death at a low level. Uses Summon Monster and Unseen Servant to explore rooms, and trigger surprises. Can turn into Dwarven Ancestor Questions:- does he gain extra 2nd level spell slots from focused specialist? - does he gain extra 2nd level spell slots from bonus Int? - Is there an easy way to gain that last CL? - Is there anything else you'd do to make this more optimal? Potential Solutions for last CL:- pay ~ 1K gold for psychic reformation: Create Scroll -> some feat giving +1 CL to transmuyation - Alternatively, Fiendish Codex II Faustian pact for bonus feat - alternatively, starts out as a lesser assimar/tiefling, and then alter self's into human for bonus feat (but then needs to be able to cast alter self at least *2 per day) Thoughts? Best, David
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« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 04:56:14 AM by DavidWL »
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Some Cool Quotes: Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.
-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better. The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play. I often have to remind people not to underrate divination. The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2009, 04:44:44 AM » |
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Loredrake cheese seems the way to go with this, to be honest. All you really need is power word:pain.
Although the raw gouda of the lesser fey'ri race also has its appeal. Man did they screw up when they just said "lesser planetouched".
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« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 04:52:17 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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DavidWL
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2009, 04:55:51 AM » |
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Loredrake cheese seems the way to go with this, to be honest. All you really need is power word:pain.
About Loredrake: I did look (a lot) at Loredrake cheese, the main problem was that it didn't allow outsider type, so you couldn't do stuff like Dwarven Ancestor or snabbing Nightmare "Immunity to death or other inconvenience". I'd actually prefer Loredrake, as I quite like spontaneous casters, and! this would get rid of the need for precocious apprentice, which rapidly becomes a very mediocre feat. About Power Word: PainAwesome spell. If you have mobility or invisibility, it'll do an average of 35 HP damage per casting if facing someone with less than 50 HP. Wow. Great with an offensively casting Dwarven Ancestor (who can tank) or a nightmare's powers (who is virtually untouchable). That said, if something is actually dangerous or undead, other offensive options (and defensive options) are welcome! For example - how to deal with constructs, undead, incorporeal undead. What about creatures with lots of HP? Best, David P.S. I've updated the original post to add in power word: pain |
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« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 05:08:50 AM by DavidWL »
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Some Cool Quotes: Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.
-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better. The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play. I often have to remind people not to underrate divination. The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
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Prime32
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
Posts: 7534
Modding since 03/12/10
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2009, 05:06:15 AM » |
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I did look (a lot) at Loredrake cheese, the main problem was that it didn't allow outsider type, so you couldn't do stuff like Dwarven Ancestor or snabbing Nightmare "Immunity to death or other inconvenience".
I'd actually prefer Loredrake, as I quite like spontaneous casters, and! this would get rid of the need for precocious apprentice, which rapidly becomes a very mediocre feat. Could you play a dragonwrought kobold, then retrain one of your feats for Otherworldly? Or start as a dragonwrought kobold, then start worshipping an elder evil - I can't remember what levels you get bonus feats from that. |
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« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 05:07:51 AM by Prime32 »
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My workDeviantArtCurrent gamesThe tier system in a nutshell: Tier 6: A cartographer. Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman. Tier 4: An expert marksman. Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left. Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy. Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2009, 05:17:05 AM » |
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Given that it technically reads "Once the dragon has the ability to cast spells, his effective sorcerer level is increased by two."
I suppose potentially you could have something like
Loredrake Kobold Beguiler 1.
With the feats
Heighten Spell
Versatile spellcaster
Dragonwrought
Which gets 2nd level sorc and 1st level beguiler casting (but 2nd level beguiler spells).
If you took "child of eberron" instead of loredrake, you get second level druid spells. Are there any decent ones for this challenge? Ditto for "master of the hoard" with cleric spells.
I'm very leery of retraining.
EE feats are 1 + 1/(5 lvls).
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« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 05:20:46 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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DavidWL
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2009, 05:37:34 AM » |
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I did look (a lot) at Loredrake cheese, the main problem was that it didn't allow outsider type, so you couldn't do stuff like Dwarven Ancestor or snabbing Nightmare "Immunity to death or other inconvenience".
I'd actually prefer Loredrake, as I quite like spontaneous casters, and! this would get rid of the need for precocious apprentice, which rapidly becomes a very mediocre feat. Could you play a dragonwrought kobold, then retrain one of your feats for Otherworldly? Or start as a dragonwrought kobold, then start worshipping an elder evil - I can't remember what levels you get bonus feats from that. Hmm. Re: Kobold + retraining for otherworldly ... strictly speaking, otherworldly can only be taken by humans and elves. Even ignoring that, I'm not sure that you'd be able to take otherworldly after 1st level, since it is really about heritage, and is clearly inherited ... However both worship of an Elder Evil or selling your soul can get you extra feats. (Elder Evil worship = 1 + 1/5 levels in feats, selling your soul = 1-2 feats). That said, I'd like to avoid those if possible, since they are not typically used on the boards. Best, David |
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Some Cool Quotes: Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.
-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better. The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play. I often have to remind people not to underrate divination. The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
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DavidWL
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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2009, 05:46:28 AM » |
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If you took "child of eberron" instead of loredrake, you get second level druid spells. Are there any decent ones for this challenge? Ditto for "master of the hoard" with cleric spells.
I don't know of any great low-level druid spells, but I'm not that familiar with Druid spells ... Wow! - that's an awesome find. Spontaneous casting of any Cleric or beguiler or a few domains spell at level 1. (Or, spontaneous casting of any Druid spell or beguiler spell + some domains). And! casting of 2nd level spells at 1st level ... any from your lists! Eat your heart out rainbow servant! Best, David |
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Some Cool Quotes: Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.
-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better. The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play. I often have to remind people not to underrate divination. The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
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Prime32
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
Posts: 7534
Modding since 03/12/10
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2009, 05:48:12 AM » |
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Hmm. Re: Kobold + retraining for otherworldly ... strictly speaking, otherworldly can only be taken by humans and elves. It's not a racial feat though, it's a regional one. It's for people from a certain place, which happens to be populated by humans and elves in the standard setting. |
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My workDeviantArtCurrent gamesThe tier system in a nutshell: Tier 6: A cartographer. Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman. Tier 4: An expert marksman. Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left. Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy. Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
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DavidWL
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2009, 05:50:40 AM » |
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Hmm. Re: Kobold + retraining for otherworldly ... strictly speaking, otherworldly can only be taken by humans and elves. It's not a racial feat though, it's a regional one. It's for people from a certain place, which happens to be populated by humans and elves in the standard setting. Oh - I stand corrected - you, good sir, are right. Thank you, David |
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Some Cool Quotes: Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.
-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better. The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play. I often have to remind people not to underrate divination. The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
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telehax
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2009, 05:51:45 AM » |
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How are you retraining feats again? I am more than pretty sure you can only do it when you level up. Which doesn't happen in this excercise.
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Prime32
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
Posts: 7534
Modding since 03/12/10
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2009, 05:55:17 AM » |
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Any way you could get access to psychic reformation?
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My workDeviantArtCurrent gamesThe tier system in a nutshell: Tier 6: A cartographer. Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman. Tier 4: An expert marksman. Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left. Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy. Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
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PhaedrusXY
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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2009, 09:01:34 AM » |
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I thought you could only choose one Supernatural ability to assume with Assume Supernatural Ability. Of course, if you can somehow get to another plane, Astral Projection works just fine by itself.
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A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?
Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
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snakeman830
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2009, 10:45:55 AM » |
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Just a note: Naeraphim can be used instead of Human and Otherworldly, IIRC.
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I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle. The book doesn't even exist! Quotes: By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life. hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea. If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit. See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere. |
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CantripN
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2009, 11:25:06 AM » |
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A 350 GP Holy Symbol is possible, even at level 1. Vanguard of Kord for +1 CL for Transmutation. I'm sure there are other options, though. I'd do it with a (Cloistered) Cleric who has the Transformation Domain, and Spontaneous Domain Casting, along with Versatile Spellcaster. That's more reliable, I think, and a free +1 CL for your Transmutation spells. |
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Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2009, 11:43:56 AM » |
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So what really matters are things with 50+ Hp that are still in the range of an ECL1 character. CR4-10 has statted XP but is "unbeatable." There should definitely be some CR3 things with 51 hp right? A large animated construct comes to mind.
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r |
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PhaedrusXY
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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2009, 11:57:42 AM » |
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A 350 GP Holy Symbol is possible, even at level 1. Vanguard of Kord for +1 CL for Transmutation. I'm sure there are other options, though. I'd do it with a (Cloistered) Cleric who has the Transformation Domain, and Spontaneous Domain Casting, along with Versatile Spellcaster. That's more reliable, I think, and a free +1 CL for your Transmutation spells. Yeah, I think this works, doesn't it? Let's say he's a Neraph, and starts in Limbo, to avoid having to bother with getting to another plane.  Neraph Cloistered Cleric Domains: Transformation, Knowledge, ? ACF: Spontaneous Domain Casting (Transformation) Feats: Reserves of Strength, Versatile Spellcaster, Assume Supernatural Ability Trait: Spellgifted (Transmutation) Gear: Vanguard of Kord Flaws: pick 2 CL: 6 (1+1domain+3RoS+1Van) Requires: 2 flaws, a weird race, using a holy symbol of Kord on a cleric with a domain he doesn't have, a trait, a notoriously broken feat from Savage Species, a feat from a rarely used campaign book, mixed campaign stuff, as Kord doesn't exist in Dragonlance, and a holy symbol that is beyond your starting wealth, but which you could afford after an adventure or two. What you get: You can travel to other planes and be virtually unkillable for 1 hour per day, and you look like a demonic horse. That's about it. You still have your same ability scores, you probably can't cast spells, you can't use normal equipment. Your offensive capabilities are less than stellar, but you do get +13 natural armor and a 1d8 hoof attack. Since the Astral Projection technically has an indefinite duration, you could change back to your normal form and adventure, but that only gives you one "extra life" per casting of Alter Self. It would make for a fun recurring NPC, too.  |
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A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?
Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
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snakeman830
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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2009, 12:41:21 PM » |
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Wierd race can be dropped by using Human and Otherworldly as per the OP. I just suggested Neraphim as an alternate way to do it.
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I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle. The book doesn't even exist! Quotes: By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life. hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea. If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit. See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere. |
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PhaedrusXY
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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2009, 12:46:42 PM » |
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Wierd race can be dropped by using Human and Otherworldly as per the OP. I just suggested Neraphim as an alternate way to do it.
Yes, but then you have to figure out how to get to another plane, unless you think you can use Astral Projection from the material, and then return to the material and make a new body there. Normally if you project from the material and return there, it ends the spell and you return to your body. Of course, you could say you're an Otherworldly human that lives on a plane other than the Prime Material, I guess. |
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A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?
Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2009, 01:10:16 PM » |
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Hi, guys. I'm a lesser Fey'ri who took magic in the blood
I have alternate form: any humanoid, charm persion, enervation* and suggestion each 3/day, fire resistance 10 and a ton of miscellaneous bonuses.
*replace with DR 10/magic to taste
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BowenSilverclaw
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« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2009, 01:21:52 PM » |
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Hi, guys. I'm a lesser Fey'ri who took magic in the blood
I have alternate form: any humanoid, charm persion, enervation* and suggestion each 3/day, fire resistance 10 and a ton of miscellaneous bonuses.
*replace with DR 10/magic to taste
I came. |
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"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!" You caught a fish. It was awesome.  |
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