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Author Topic: Let's Optimize Disarm  (Read 13421 times)
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bearsarebrown
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« on: October 31, 2009, 12:53:48 AM »

Yes, I know, at high level it's a bad combat maneuver. Most things run with Natural Attacks, whatever, I still want to optimize it. Smile

Quote from: Relevent SRD
Disarm

As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. If you do so with a weapon, you knock the opponent’s weapon out of his hands and to the ground. If you attempt the disarm while unarmed, you end up with the weapon in your hand.

If you’re attempting to disarm a melee weapon, follow the steps outlined here. If the item you are attempting to disarm isn’t a melee weapon the defender may still oppose you with an attack roll, but takes a penalty and can’t attempt to disarm you in return if your attempt fails.

Step 1
Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to disarm. (If you have the Improved Disarm feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making a disarm attempt.) If the defender’s attack of opportunity deals any damage, your disarm attempt fails.

Step 2
Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a -4 penalty on the roll.

Step 3
Consequences. If you beat the defender, the defender is disarmed. If you attempted the disarm action unarmed, you now have the weapon. If you were armed, the defender’s weapon is on the ground in the defender’s square.

What's the build? I don't care. Take your favorite cleric build and somehow fit in Shiba Protector.
  20 BAB (Divine Power*)
  +8 Strength (14 + 10 (Kord's Power Surge) + 2 (Enlarge Person) = 26)
  +4 Imp Disarm
  +4 Two Handing Weapon
  +1 Magic Weapon!
  +4 Stealer enchantment
  +4 Size (Enlarge Person*)
  +4 Size (Initiate of Kord)
  +4 Effective Size (Jotunbrud)
+11 Intuitive Strike (Greatspear) (18 + 6 (item) + 4 (level ups) + 5 (tome) = 33)
+11 No Thought (Shiba Protector (OA 222))
+10 Champion of Kord (4th level spell DR342)
=
+85      And note, this is at any time. The two buffs listed could easily be Persisted.

With every situation buff added:
  20 BAB (Divine Power*)
+23 Strength (14 + 10 (Kord's Power Surge) + 32 (Giant Size) = 46)
   -8 Size (attack)
  +4 Imp Disarm
  +4 Two Handing Weapon
  +1 Magic Weapon!
  +4 Stealer enchantment
+16 Size (Giant Size)
  +4 Size (Initiate of Kord)
  +4 Effective Size (Jotunbrud)
+16 Intuitive Strike (Greatspear) (18 + 6 (item) + 4 (level ups) + 5 (tome) +10 (Owl's Insight) = 43)
+16 No Thought (Shiba Protector (OA 222))
+10 Champion of Kord (4th level spell DR342)
+16 Smite from Prestige Paladin & Serenity feat
  +2 Attacking from Invisible
  +2 Flanking
  +4 Charge (Kord Spell makes it 4)
+20
=
+158! Aha!

For those wondering, this passes the average deity's attack roll by about 60.

Other things that are either situational or time/day.
+2 Attacking from Invisible
+X Disarming enchantment (if they're two handing a weapon you get an effective +4)
+2 Flanking
+2 Charge (I think you can disarm after a charge...)
+Cha (Slippers of Battle Dancing)
+16 (Smite from Prestige Paladin and Serenity feat from Dragon Comp)

+73 Disarm modifier means that anyone with an overall attack bonus of less then 53... will lose their weapon.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 12:58:15 AM by bearsarebrown » Logged
Surreal
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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2009, 01:30:33 AM »

The Flindbar (MM3, under Flind Gnoll) is an exotic weapon, 2d4 19-20x2, that gives +2 to disarm and a free disarm attempt whenever you threaten.
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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2009, 01:56:29 AM »

The Flindbar (MM3, under Flind Gnoll) is an exotic weapon, 2d4 19-20x2, that gives +2 to disarm and a free disarm attempt whenever you threaten.

I actually thought about making a character using Reach-grade flindbars with Knockdown and Improved Trip   Free disarms and trips constantly, and one can set up the other, and vice versa.
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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2009, 02:19:23 AM »

For those shapeshifting abberations types, the Mimic and Rukanyr (Fiend Folio) offer disarm methods that don't involve a disarm roll. There are others similar to the mimic, but I can't think of them right now.
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bearsarebrown
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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2009, 02:42:56 AM »

The Flindbar (MM3, under Flind Gnoll) is an exotic weapon, 2d4 19-20x2, that gives +2 to disarm and a free disarm attempt whenever you threaten.

The threaten part is pretty cool, but these aren't worth it. At first I had the character using just a flail for the +2, then I realized that using a simple weapon and taking Intuitive Strike is just so much better.
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Surreal
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2009, 04:10:56 AM »

I guess it comes down to how you want to use your actions. Passive vs Active. You're either specifically using your attack to disarm, or you spent a feat which gives you a chance to disarm on every single attack you make.
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2009, 10:57:49 AM »

Disarming Enhancement in MIC.  Gives another +2, but you also cannot be disarmed of the weapon in case your opponent somehow beats you.
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2009, 12:41:45 PM »

More size and STR with Miracle'd Giant size? Also, extra points for the cool mental image where your 200ft character uses an enormous weapon to hit stuff out of the hands of medium creatures...
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bearsarebrown
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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2009, 01:44:33 PM »

I guess it comes down to how you want to use your actions. Passive vs Active. You're either specifically using your attack to disarm, or you spent a feat which gives you a chance to disarm on every single attack you make.

Crescent Moon Style. If you hit with both a dagger and a longsword, you get a free disarm attempt. the problem here is that you must TWF. Or hit with dagger, drop it, draw longsword from Haversack and finish full attack with that. Debatably just use Aptitude.

On an unrelated note: Disarm lets you hit anything out of the persons hand, not just weapon. AND they take a penalty for it! Where am I going with this? Readied actions to hit away disarm Material Components. Or Mage Slayer and disarm on your AoO.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 02:02:14 PM by bearsarebrown » Logged
bearsarebrown
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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2009, 04:16:38 PM »

Now lets look at it as, well, a realistic combat maneuver!
 
  20 BAB (Divine Power*)
  +5 Strength (10 + 10 (Kord's Power Surge)= 20)
  +2 MiC Disarming
  +4 Two Handing Weapon
  +1 Magic Weapon!
  +4 Stealer enchantment
  +4 Size (Initiate of Kord)
+11 Intuitive Strike (Greatspear) (18 + 6 (item) + 4 (level ups) + 5 (tome) = 33)
+10 Champion of Kord (4th level spell DR342)
=
+57 is actually very doable for the cost of 2 feats (Intuitive Strike and Initiate of Kord) and a 4th level spell and 1st level spell.

And even melee monsters will lose there weapon here. And picking one up invokes an AoO... in which you disarm them again. I wonder how well a Druid could deck there animal companion's disarm modifier...

(Yes, I realize that in almost every case, a Trip attack does more. Not only do they invoke AoO to enter the battle again, but they can't move! But I like disarm because 1) It's different. 2) It's an easier check to make because almost everyone ignores it)
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PhaedrusXY
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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2009, 11:09:53 PM »

True Strike for +20.
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bearsarebrown
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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2009, 12:30:51 AM »

I, uh, I don't know how I forgot that!
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« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 10:20:31 AM »

did this once to see how well it went at 1st level...

human fighter 1
jotunbrud
combat expertise
imp disarm
18 str...
13 int

1 BAB
4 str
4 jotunbrud
4 imp disarm
2 hv flail
4 two handed
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« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2009, 11:01:40 AM »

Why isn't anyone using a Spiked Chain?

Sewiously.
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bearsarebrown
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« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 11:07:23 AM »

Why isn't anyone using a Spiked Chain?

Sewiously.

Because using a simple weapon and adding Wisdom is significantly stronger. Just also have a spiked gauntlet as well. the level one character concept just can't spare the feat.
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« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2009, 11:57:39 AM »

The Grappling Block feat from Oriental Adventures is very good on a disarm build.


Also, last I checked beating a Deity's numbers in an opposed check was still a loss because they get nat 20s every time.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 11:59:24 AM by Bloody Initiate » Logged

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bearsarebrown
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« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2009, 12:16:32 PM »

Can you critical on a disarm check? If you can then okay, but even with +20 you still beat there modifiers by 50.
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« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2009, 01:50:22 PM »

You can't critical with a normal disarm check (You can with the disarming strike maneuver) but I thought the "Auto Success" still applied to opposed checks (Of which Disarm is one).

However, I could be wrong, haven't looked at the book in awhile and I don't have it available to me right now.
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bearsarebrown
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« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2009, 01:53:49 PM »

It's not auto-success, they just roll maximum on any and all rolls. Including attacks and saving throws. The only thing you roll for is confirming criticals. So you can effectively just add 20 to almost every entry in their stat blocks and just not roll anything Smile
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« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2009, 02:16:35 PM »

That's not very godlike or impressive at all. I'm much more comfortable with nat 20s, even if it's not written that way. I like that "there's always a bigger fish".

Oh well
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