http://brilliantgameologists.com
May 25, 2017, 02:46:53 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: These boards are now READ ONLY. We've started over! So don't try posting here. Go here www.minmaxboards.com
 
   Home   Help Search Members Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Sode #15: Joys of Min/Maxing  (Read 13392 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Meg
Message Board Extraordinaire
Brilliant Gameologist
Man in Gorilla Suit
*
Posts: 2069


Are you rapier than me?

NA
WWW Email
« on: June 07, 2008, 09:59:34 PM »

In this episode we cover the brighter side of life with min/maxing.  We open with what gaming, day-to-day life, and god would be like if non min-maxed and then go into why it is advantageous to have a min/maxer as a fellow player, to have one as a player when you are GM'ing, and to be one yourself.  We have an enlightening PSA from Josh and then finish with the 12 (or 4 or 20) different types of min/maxers. 

Logged

All of my updates are on twitter! 

This is my angry voice.  Text written in red, by me, is  an official moderator "suggestion"

Want to meet me or the other Gameologists?  Check out where we'll be on the Conventions, Meetups and Events board!
Zeke
Brilliant Gameologist
Bi-Curious George
*
Posts: 540



Email
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2008, 09:26:52 PM »

I'm interested in what people have to say about the "why min-maxing is good" half of the episode. I hope we changed some minds and sparked some debate.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 07:39:55 AM by Zeke » Logged
Meg
Message Board Extraordinaire
Brilliant Gameologist
Man in Gorilla Suit
*
Posts: 2069


Are you rapier than me?

NA
WWW Email
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2008, 09:50:49 PM »

I preemptively apologize for much of the episode.  I had consumed of the funny juice prior to recording. 

I'm very interested to see what you all think of the sound quality too-- I turned the gain down a little on this recording and hope that some of the "warble" that our sound engineer heard was reduced.  There are also sound affects, though I hope they aren't over the top. 
Logged

All of my updates are on twitter! 

This is my angry voice.  Text written in red, by me, is  an official moderator "suggestion"

Want to meet me or the other Gameologists?  Check out where we'll be on the Conventions, Meetups and Events board!
Solo Phoenix
Ring-Tailed Lemur
**
Posts: 68


Avatar by Sampi


WWW Email
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2008, 07:48:44 AM »

I thought the sound effects were great, and the analogy accompanying them very easy to understand.  Nearly fell out of my chair with laughter in parts, loved Gabriel's phone conversation.

I guess I'm not the best judge though, I was already on the side of the gameologists for this one.  I await the no-doubt interesting arguments that will be put forward by those opposed though.
Logged

Advice to gamer girls looking for love: The odds are very good, but the goods are very odd.<br /><br />They call it a clam for a reason.
Zeke
Brilliant Gameologist
Bi-Curious George
*
Posts: 540



Email
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2008, 08:49:04 AM »

I'd like to point out that josh wrote that on a sheet of computer paper about 15 minutes before we recorded. That man is money.
Logged
AfterCrescent
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
*
Posts: 4220


Here After

AfterCrescent
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2008, 09:09:24 AM »

First off, I loved this episode. I also really enjoyed the reasonings and need to have some of my players (actually, all of them) listen to this episode. I may just play it before my next DMing session...  Anyways, to answer Zeke's question, it really hits home with the "why min-maxing is good." As a player, I've noticed that everyone more or less turns to me, because I min-max, and I know all the rules. They ask for strategic points on about a million things. In some ways, that's good, because our team work comes out better when we're all on the same page about things. However, as a counter point, sometimes people ask so much of me, that it basically amounts to "make my character for me, and make it awesome." Which sucks. I want to make my character and have fun with it, I don't want to make the whole party. Especially because if I make it good at something and then the person doesn't do that, it's a bit frustrating.

On the flip side of the table, as a GM, my players aren't really min-maxers, and I feel like life would be so much easier if they were. With the help of another min-maxer here on BG, we helped my players make more min-maxed players last night.When I ran an introductory session, combat flew through much faster than usual. You're right, when people know they are good at certain things, they can relax and combat flows easier.  On the flip side, there were a couple parts where, because they weren't sure about all the rules, that they slowed things down... But that was more because they had min-maxed characters and didn't know everything they could do, which I kindly suggested they read up on. I.e. one of my PCs has Hide in Plain Sight (D&D 3.5) so I suggested he look up those rules and all the ways he can gain Sneak Attack.

The sound quality was great, Meg.  The episode as a whole was hilarious and well done. The sound effects aren't over the top, but I actually found them a bit distracting. I felt like what was being said at those few intervals didn't need effects and it seemed to distract me from the episode at a point.  It wasn't bad, just minorly distracting.

Zeke, while Josh may be money, I have to tell you that you are the funniest one on the show.  Everyone on the show is funny, but you definitely take the cake, so to speak. On a 1-10 scale where Meg and Josh are 8s, you're definitely an 11 or so. Clap
Logged

The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie
Meg
Message Board Extraordinaire
Brilliant Gameologist
Man in Gorilla Suit
*
Posts: 2069


Are you rapier than me?

NA
WWW Email
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2008, 10:44:51 AM »

Zeke, while Josh may be money, I have to tell you that you are the funniest one on the show.  Everyone on the show is funny, but you definitely take the cake, so to speak. On a 1-10 scale where Meg and Josh are 8s, you're definitely an 11 or so. Clap

Quoted For Motherfuckin' Truth.  The best is though that Zeke does NO prep-- everything he says that is hilarious is exactly how he talks.  All the time.  The banter the 3 of us have in all of our conversations was one of the big reasons we started podcasting in the first place.
Logged

All of my updates are on twitter! 

This is my angry voice.  Text written in red, by me, is  an official moderator "suggestion"

Want to meet me or the other Gameologists?  Check out where we'll be on the Conventions, Meetups and Events board!
altpersona
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 2939


BG forum Emperor Ad Litem


WWW
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2008, 01:12:36 PM »

this was the first of the pod casts i have listened to.

very nice, i'll have to go back and listen to the others now...

however, i have a beef with the episode...

around the 40 minute mark, Meg dissed familiars. "useless" she/you said... not very min/max... Smile
Logged

The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

Anim-manga sux.

AfterCrescent
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
*
Posts: 4220


Here After

AfterCrescent
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2008, 01:20:15 PM »

Hehe, yeah Meg, for all your time on the CO boards, you should really check out Dictum Mortuum's Handbook on Familiars Wink
Logged

The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie
Meg
Message Board Extraordinaire
Brilliant Gameologist
Man in Gorilla Suit
*
Posts: 2069


Are you rapier than me?

NA
WWW Email
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2008, 01:26:00 PM »

Yeah, I did read that Handbook.  I still think though that overall they just aren't very great.
Logged

All of my updates are on twitter! 

This is my angry voice.  Text written in red, by me, is  an official moderator "suggestion"

Want to meet me or the other Gameologists?  Check out where we'll be on the Conventions, Meetups and Events board!
heffroncm
Bi-Curious George
****
Posts: 374


heffroncm heffroncm
Email
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2008, 01:27:41 PM »

Yeah, I did read that Handbook.  I still think though that overall they just aren't very great.

+1.  The kind of time and effort I personally would have to put into learning how to optimally utilize a familiar is overshadowed by the usefulness of familiar replacing alternate class features.
Logged
AfterCrescent
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
*
Posts: 4220


Here After

AfterCrescent
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2008, 01:41:10 PM »

I think it's like anything else. If you optimize that aspect of your character, it will be really cool, but without it, it's mediocre.
Logged

The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie
Solo Phoenix
Ring-Tailed Lemur
**
Posts: 68


Avatar by Sampi


WWW Email
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2008, 02:00:15 PM »

Also, I totally want to see the stats on the Tubby and subraces 
Logged

Advice to gamer girls looking for love: The odds are very good, but the goods are very odd.<br /><br />They call it a clam for a reason.
altpersona
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 2939


BG forum Emperor Ad Litem


WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2008, 02:13:10 PM »

the LA on dark tubbies makes them sub optimal..
Logged

The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

Anim-manga sux.

Zeke
Brilliant Gameologist
Bi-Curious George
*
Posts: 540



Email
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2008, 02:25:59 PM »

The real gem of the Tubby set is the Iron Gut Tubby who get a + 5 racial bonus to saving throws made versus posions and toxis and + 2 Natural Armor.
Logged
heffroncm
Bi-Curious George
****
Posts: 374


heffroncm heffroncm
Email
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2008, 02:33:24 PM »

The real gem of the Tubby set is the Iron Gut Tubby who get a + 5 racial bonus to saving throws made versus poisons and toxis and + 2 Natural Armor.

Only if you're a ROLL-player.  ROLE-players stick with Telletubbies for greater character depth

*nodwink*
« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 02:44:59 PM by Zeke » Logged
Solo Phoenix
Ring-Tailed Lemur
**
Posts: 68


Avatar by Sampi


WWW Email
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2008, 02:48:51 PM »

The real gem of the Tubby set is the Iron Gut Tubby who get a + 5 racial bonus to saving throws made versus poisons and toxis and + 2 Natural Armor.

Only if you're a ROLL-player.  ROLE-players stick with Telletubbies for greater character depth

*nodwink*

That and the fascinate effect that their telly produces.
Logged

Advice to gamer girls looking for love: The odds are very good, but the goods are very odd.<br /><br />They call it a clam for a reason.
Zeke
Brilliant Gameologist
Bi-Curious George
*
Posts: 540



Email
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2008, 02:56:26 PM »

The real gem of the Tubby set is the Iron Gut Tubby who get a + 5 racial bonus to saving throws made versus poisons and toxis and + 2 Natural Armor.

Only if you're a ROLL-player.  ROLE-players stick with Telletubbies for greater character depth

*nodwink*






Oh no, you Di'nt.

Logged
Tshern
Clown Prince of Crime
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 5726


Aistii valoa auttavasti

miikamartemo@hotmail.com
Email
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2008, 03:32:22 PM »

This is a topic I really want to comment on! Here comes my block of text...

First I want to notify that this whole text is about D&D 3.5 minmaxing, so it might be pointless to compare it to other game engines. Then again, it might be the most worthwhile thing in the world, but you have been warned and I am handing the responsibility to you now.

For everyone reading Wizards of the Coast's Character Optimization board or the Min/Max It! board here knows I am a minmaxer, optimizer or whatever you want to call me. The only reason not to optimize I have ever seen as even slightly valid is peer pressure. There are groups that don't really enjoy minmaxers and no-one likes roleplaying vs rollplaying debates. Especially not the ones who agree with the Stormwind Fallacy (essentially it states that roleplaying and optimizing are not mutually exclusive). However, I do not play, nor do I ever intend to do so, in a group where this debate has been a major issue.

Optimizing itself opens a plethora of options. In D&D your character is the hero at least in some sense of the word. To the player his character is the center of that very world, no matter what the level, social position or task of the character is. The character is there for the player to channel his thoughts, feelings and artistic talents through and being the hero he must have some exceptional powers that can be used to channel the aforementioned qualities. The game system of D&D alone proves this to be true. Player classes are by definition stronger that NPC classes  (let us leave Fighter vs Adept debates out of this) and thus players are expected to be more powerful than the common folk in the game. As you might imagine, the great prodigy of the local monastery will come out on top from a fight against a dairy farmer.

Now I have established that players should be stronger than standard NPCs. But why should you choose to be optimized instead of making 'roleplaying choices' if you are already powerful by default? Because that is what people do in real life. Feats are a scarce resource and instead of using them to create flavour with an extremely small benefit is not smart. Instead of picking Investigator to your Wizard take some cross class skill ranks and roleplay your background out and choose a metamagic feat instead. Your flavour remains the same, but mechanically you are a lot better off. Would you not do this in real life? There was a choice between two limited resources and the lesser ones were used to acquire a smaller benefit, while the greater ones helped you to get more power.

At this point some probably are concerned about party's inner balance. An experienced minmaxer with a bunch of roleplayers. This is easily solved by reserving more time for character creation so that the optimizer can help the others or at least guide them to an appropriate web site. Should the players be receptive to this idea the game will become a lot more enjoyable as the characters have more options in the game and they can things they never thought was possible. After all, fighting against seemingly impossible odds and winning is one of the best feelings D&D can ever offer.

Non-abusive minmaxers tend to know the rules very well or at least they have an idea where to find them and are adept at interpreting them. DMs do a great deal of work for the game and at least I like to see my creations in action rather than have the game degrade from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits into Journey to the Grappling Rules. Keeping the game rolling is the benefit of both players and the DM. No-one wants to sit on the couch while the DM searches for a bunch of rulings because someone forgot how Freezing fog works. This doesn't mean you have to know everything by heart, but knowing sources for the material your character uses is a must, but yet forgetting a source every now and then happens, which is when the friendly neighbourhood minmaxer steps in and saves the session.

Too bad there are abusive minmaxers too. Those people who refuse to help others, make sure they get the spotlight every time and maybe even bend rules intentionally. That's not the kind of optimization I am talking about here. Every basket has a bad apple and the huge basket of D&D players naturally has plenty of those rotten fruits. This can be used as an argument against the art of minmaxing, but the credibility of that argument is way too low to change my opinion.

Comments on this?
Logged

Ja vuosia myöhemmin
kalvas kaksikko lattialla motellin tihrustelee,
kun sama keiju katossa leijailee.
Kyselevät: "Mikä päivä nyt on?
Tiedätkö sen?"
Kuiskaten laulaa keiju:
"Tämän elämän viimeinen."

Handy Links
Prime32
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
*
Posts: 7534


Modding since 03/12/10


« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2008, 04:18:12 PM »

You need a poll in this thread for the types of minmaxers - I'd say I'm a system-head/researcher.
Logged

My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!