Enhancing survival

[Dallimar]

I've been playing for a long time and I love the way that the skill system has turned out (though I would put a few skills together myself). However, I've always wanted to have a more cinematic feel with the survival skill when it comes to tracking. Like if it could tell you how many creatures there were, their speed, conditions affecting them (like dazed, stunned, fatigued, etc). Are there rules for that anywhere on these boards and I've just missed it, or is it something that I would have to make on my own? If I had to work on making it would I get any support and/or help developing it? Thank you.

[InnaBinder]

I've been playing for a long time and I love the way that the skill system has turned out (though I would put a few skills together myself). However, I've always wanted to have a more cinematic feel with the survival skill when it comes to tracking. Like if it could tell you how many creatures there were, their speed, conditions affecting them (like dazed, stunned, fatigued, etc). Are there rules for that anywhere on these boards and I've just missed it, or is it something that I would have to make on my own? If I had to work on making it would I get any support and/or help developing it? Thank you.

I would say all of those aspects are intended to be rolled into the Survival skill, with DC influencing the accuracy and detail of the information gleaned.  The number of creatures would be a relatively lower DC (counting distinct tracks isn't especially hard, maybe a 15), judging their gait slightly higher (steps lengthen = going faster, perhaps a 17), and conditions harder still depending on which conditions you're reading.  The caveat is, those numbers might work at lower levels, but become auto-successes fairly quickly.

[Dallimar]

So what if it were affected by the HD of the creature being tracked? That would keep some scalability in the skill checks for it.

[InnaBinder]

So what if it were affected by the HD of the creature being tracked? That would keep some scalability in the skill checks for it.

That would make a rabbit easier to track across the field than a dinosaur.  Just sayin'.

[PhaedrusXY]

Huh... I thought all this stuff was described in the Track feat. Maybe it was in Masters of the Wild? I know I used to figure out stuff like this with a ranger that I played for years, but I don't remember where the rules for it were. Maybe it was dropped in the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion?

[Dallimar]

Thought about that afterward too. How about base DCs. The same modifiers would apply as do to any other survival check, but a new chart could be made with a few extra bits in it.

Example:
DC 10 Determine the number of creatures being tracked.
DC 15 Identify the creature's type.
DC 17 Identify the creature's sub-type.
etc.
etc.

It would require a bit more thought than that, but I think it could work. And while I understand that it wouldn't really scale the characters are supposed to get better at these sorts of things with more levels. I'd not have a problem with the PC's figuring out all that info at higher levels. At that point they'd be dealing with flying, phasing, and displacing creatures more often.

If this is something that can't be set into the game in a mechanic and should be set in the realm flavorful description I'm fine with that. Just curious as to whether anyone here is up to the challenge of making it work out.

Huh... I thought all this stuff was described in the Track feat. Maybe it was in Masters of the Wild? I know I used to figure out stuff like this with a ranger that I played for years, but I don't remember where the rules for it were. Maybe it was dropped in the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion?

I thought I remembered something like it too, but I have been unable to find it myself.

[archangel.arcanis]

SRD epic said to ID a race or kind of creature is DC 60.
According to CrystalKeep Stormreach adds +10DC to track in water.

I got nothing else in my search for things.

[PhaedrusXY]

SRD epic said to ID a race or kind of creature is DC 60.

That's just freakin' preposterous.

[veekie]

Because only magic is allowed to have nice things.[/sarcasm]
Pretty much why, barring a handful of skills, the rest don't really have appropriate DCs, or even range of functions.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Come on, can you really expect to tell the difference between, say, a wood elf's, gray elf's, high elf's, sun elf's, silverbrow human's, generic human's, illumian's, and an alternate form-using copper dragon's tracks without a DC 60 check?

[veekie]

Depends on if you can find discarded granola wrappers on the trail. You could figure out someone's approximate height and weight from reasonably good tracks IRL, so that should be a trivial matter for a high level survival expert, and then some.

[Dallimar]

Alright, so IRL you can't tell if someone is black, white, or asian by their tracks. You could make a rather good guess at it based on where you are when you find said tracks. You could, however, tell two different types of animals apart with little to no problem. It's easy to tell the difference between a deer and pig for example. Not only are the tracks different, but other markings in the area would help to tell them apart. A male deer may leave marks on the trees with his antlers while a pig is going to leave marks on the ground while it searches for food.

All I'm saying is that it's not impossible to tell apart to creatures from their tracks. For all we know the elves are lead by the Ministry of Silly Walks, and that would make it very easy to tell them apart from humans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqhlQfXUk7w <--the Ministry of Silly Walks

[bihlbo]

Alright, so IRL you can't tell if someone is black, white, or asian by their tracks.

Race is not race.
You listed human ethnicities. We call them "races" because of Darwin's horribly flawed theories. He was wrong, there is only one race of humans, but it's hard to change incorrect terminology. An elf, however, is not an ethnicity of human, it's another race entirely.

[PhaedrusXY]

Come on, can you really expect to tell the difference between, say, a wood elf's, gray elf's, high elf's, sun elf's, silverbrow human's, generic human's, illumian's, and an alternate form-using copper dragon's tracks without a DC 60 check?

No, but you should be able to fairly easily tell the difference between an elf, a lizardman, and a kobold. The elves you listed are all still elves, and so are the same race (they're different subraces). The same thing would go for all the different flavors of "human" that live on modern Earth. And illumians, humans, and silverbrow humans are all "humans". So those are really bad examples (and you know it).

The dragon is using a magical trick, and not a fair example, either.

[bihlbo]

I think that there is a lot of room to add detail to the way Survival is used to find tracks. The difficult thing, as has been pointed out, is to come up with DCs that are meaningful and remain interesting.

Assuming a creature is relatively optimized for tracking, on top of skill ranks the creature probably has Scent (usually a +4 bonus), a +4 to +8 ability score modifier, multiple +2 synergy bonuses are possible, and perhaps another +4 from other sources. So at level 1 a good Survival modifier can range from +6 to +20 or higher. By level 6 (typically thought of as the high end of "normal human development") it ranges from +11 to numbers approaching 30. I think that means the sweet spot for difficult DCs should be 25-45. DCs higher than this are not going to be possible unless a creature is more in the level 10+ range.

So, here's what I propose as a starting point for additional uses of the Track feat:

Code:

DC    Task
+5    Determine the approximate number of creatures that left tracks
+7    Identify the size of the creature (S)
+10   Identify the type of tracks*
+12   Determine whether the creature was walking, running, or sprinting (S)
+15   Deduce events that took place when the tracks were made (S)
+20   Identify the specific race, type, or subtype of creature**
+30   Identify any conditions affecting a creature when the tracks were made***
+40   Follow the tracks left by a subject of a pass without trace spell

(S) - This is possible only when tracking by sight, not by scent. A creature with the Scent ability can track by sight using the normal rules for the Track feat.
* - While the tracks of a dwarf will look nearly identical to the tracks of a heavy-set human, the type of tracks will allow you to identify the type of tracks, and differentiate between certain species or individual creatures if the tracks differ noticeably. Synergy bonuses from having 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nature) apply to this roll for creatures in nature, while Knowledge (dungeoneering) grants its synergy bonus to this roll for creatures below ground. When tracking by scent this may identify the type of creature differently than when identifying the shape of the tracks.
** - This is necessary only when the type of tracks does not specify any particular creature, such as booted footprints, or the scent of a large mammal.
*** - When tracking by sight this is limited to the following conditions: blinded (the stumbling caused by being unable to see can also point to the location being too dark when the creature passed, or the dazzled condition), disabled, entangled, exhausted, fatigued, and staggered. When tracking by scent this is limited to the following conditions: disabled, exhausted, fatigued, frightened, gaseous form, nauseated, panicked, polymorphed, shaken, sickened, and staggered.


Comments:
The +40 DC to follow someone with pass without trace active is in direct contradiction with the rules, of course. However, since we're making a house rule anyway, I'm throwin in a fix for something that always bothered me: absolutes. Magic is magic and all, but there needs to be exceptions. Feel free to disagree, this is just my suggestion.

The end result of these changes should allow a relatively good human tracker in a low-magic setting (let's give him a +10 modifier) to spend a little time looking at some tracks over soft ground, then stand up and say, "It looks like a man with mocasins was chasing a heavy man with iron boots through here. The heavier man stumbled against this tree and was struggling to continue. The one chasing him seemed calm, walking slowly. I don't see any arrows nearby, so either the chaser was a good shot or he wasn't using a bow to kill his quarry."

It also allows for an excellent, higher-level tracker to find out the same information by looking at tracks over rocks in a stream. This is far less realistic than the above example, but after you hit level 10 you aren't a "realistic" character any longer.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Come on, can you really expect to tell the difference between, say, a wood elf's, gray elf's, high elf's, sun elf's, silverbrow human's, generic human's, illumian's, and an alternate form-using copper dragon's tracks without a DC 60 check?

No, but you should be able to fairly easily tell the difference between an elf, a lizardman, and a kobold. The elves you listed are all still elves, and so are the same race (they're different subraces). The same thing would go for all the different flavors of "human" that live on modern Earth. And illumians, humans, and silverbrow humans are all "humans". So those are really bad examples (and you know it).

The dragon is using a magical trick, and not a fair example, either.

I was just trying to think of a logical justification for the sky-high DC, and DC 60 to be able to tell the difference would be about right for that.

Presumably you'd be able to say kobold tracks are from "a tiny reptilian humanoid" at a lower dc.
(slight build)

[Dallimar]

I really like it bihlbo. Question though; would it be effected by the target being tracked trying to hide said tracks? At that point would it be an opposed check, or would it add a modifier to the trackers roll? If it is an opposed roll would it be survival checks, or hide vs. survival?

Okay, so that was three questions, but I think you get my point. Sometimes people don't want to be followed. Maybe something like:

DC    Task
+5    Determine the approximate number of creatures that left tracks
+7    Identify the size of the creature (S)
+10   Identify the type of tracks*
+12   Determine whether the creature was walking, running, or sprinting (S)
+15   Deduce events that took place when the tracks were made (S)
+20   Identify the specific race, type, or subtype of creature**
+30   Identify any conditions affecting a creature when the tracks were made***
+40   Follow the tracks left by a subject of a pass without trace spell

If the creature you are tracking is actively trying to hide its tracks add +10 to the DC to find and/or follow them.

[PhaedrusXY]

The standard tracking rules cover hiding your tracks:

Tracked party hides trail (and moves at half speed)     +5

Making opposed checks would be a nice house rule, though.

[bihlbo]

I really like the idea that someone with the Track feat can add a modifier to the DC to follow his tracks based on a roll instead of a static bonus. In fact, I would accept the following:

Hiding Tracks
You may attempt to hide your own tracks or the tracks of others. This is a DC 10 Survival check, and slows your movement to half speed. This adds a +5 bonus to the DC required to follow the tracks you attempt to hide.

If you have the Track feat, add any modifiers you have for following tracks to this check and divide the result in half. This is the modifier you add to the DC required to follow the tracks you have worked to hide. With the Track feat you may take a -10 penalty to this roll to move at full speed while attempting to hide tracks.


Comments
The above means that the Track feat gives you a pretty sweet and meaningful bonus to hiding tracks, especially when considering that in nearly all cases, you can take 10 on this roll. A level 1 charcter with Track, a +2 Wis mod, and 4 ranks in Survival automatically adds a +8 to all attempts to track himself when he tries to hide tracks.

Also, by level 10 when your modifier is in the teens or higher, moving at normal speed still adds a decent enough bonus to the DC (in the +7 to +10 range) that you'd be hard to track by anyone without the Track feat.

Would this make hiding your tracks too trivial?

[veekie]

By level 10, if you wanted to avoid cursory tracking, it's pretty much second nature, or you could invest in a cheap magical item that erases your tracks anyway. Now, tracking some joker using magical transportation...how well can someone be tracked in water, stone(earth gliding), wall(spider climbing), air(fly), the Astral(teleportation)? These become extremely common modes of movement as you level, and unless you want tracking to go obsolete entirely, it must allow for these as well.