Tarrasque Extermination Force

[AfterCrescent]

So unless I'm mistaken (feel free to make a counter-argument) for all effects related to HD, he has yours. So if you have 20 HD, I need a CL 30 to Holy Word him to death. HOWEVER, he still only has 1 HD. So give him a negative level and he's dead.

Negative levels are an effect related to HD.

Actually...

A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain.

When doing a calculation involving HD, the familiar uses yours. But negative levels don't do a calculation, just a static check of how many levels/HD you actually have (which as far as I can tell is 1).

To be honest, this is how I've always read it, and one of the reasons I never liked or took a familiar. They're just too easy to kill for such a heavy investment.  I'm not seeing any rules support that says their actual HD are equal to yours. They don't gain HD. They don't advance HD. They have 1 HD or less, but for effects that are HD dependent (like sleep, etc) it checks against yours.

[PhaedrusXY]

When doing a calculation involving HD, the familiar uses yours. But negative levels don't do a calculation, just a static check of how many levels/HD you actually have (which as far as I can tell is 1).

The word "calculation" is never used in the rules that I see. (Even if it was, inequalities are a form of equation, and hence "calculation".)

By definition for any kind of effect (which is so broadly defined/undefined as to encompass almost everything in D&D not related to character building), the familiar is considered to have the master's hit dice, because anything that would actually care about this is by definition "an effect related to HD". (An effect not related to HD wouldn't require you to check how many HD you have... )

I'm not seeing any rules support that says their actual HD are equal to yours.

And I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying is... it doesn't matter what their actual HD is, because for all effects that care how many HD they have, they're considered to have their master's.

The only real difference between being considered to have hit dice and actually having hit dice, is for the purposes of gaining feats, BAB, skill points, qualifying for things, etc. This is precisely why it is argued that psicrystals gain feats and BAB, while familiars don't. For pretty much all other purposes where their hit dice matter, they're equal.

Edit: If the familiar gained a negative level and didn't get rid of it for 24 hours, and then failed the save and lost a hit die permanently, then I'd agree that it would die. But for any "effects" where hit dice matter, it is considered to have the same number as its master. Adding or removing a hit die from your character sheet isn't really an "effect".

[AfterCrescent]

Perhaps using the word calculation wasn't the best choice. But I see we're disagree on whether negative levels are an effect related to HD.

What I'm saying is... it doesn't matter what their actual HD is, because for all effects that care how many HD they have, they're considered to have their master's.

I'm saying negative levels don't care how many HD they're "considered" to have. It cares about ACTUAL HD.

Let's use this analogy... When you use Use Magic Device to emulate an ability score, you're considered to have that ability score, right? So let's say your Con is 10. Now let's say you UMD your Con up to 20. You are considered, for all intents and purposes to have a Con of 20. But your HP doesn't change. Your saves don't change. If you take 10 Con damage, you're still dead.

Same effect here. For all intents and purposes the familiar has HD = Master's HD, but it's actual HD is still one or less. So if I take away a level, its actual level is Zero, and it dies.

Edit: If I'm wrong and have been using familiars incorrectly this whole time, then that's fine. But I don't see how that rule applies. There is a comment in negative levels about how they reduce your effective level for calculations & die rolls. But that's separate from the flat rule that NL=HD=Death.

[PhaedrusXY]

Same effect here. For all intents and purposes the familiar has HD = Master's HD, but it's actual HD is still one or less. So if I take away a level, its actual level is Zero, and it dies.

I agree, but you're not taking away a hit die. You're inflicting a negative level, which is something entirely different. It is an effect related to hit dice. As I added with my edit above, if the familiar had the negative level for 24 hours, and then failed the save and lost a hit die permanently, I would agree that it would die.

But a negative level is an effect related to hit dice. I seriously don't understand how you could say it isn't.

Is it an effect? Yes.

Is it related to hit dice? Yes. You have to "calculate" whether you have more negative levels than hit dice, and if you do, you die. So it is clearly related to hit dice.



I don't have time to argue this anymore. Do whatever you want.

[bogsnes]

I think I will have to quit, as I just don't find room to even make my char...

I'll prolly be watching the game every now and then, though...

[Midnight_v]

I think I'm going to have to pm the guys and aske what kind of debuffer they prefer...

[skydragonknight]

A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain.

So the key word here is level. Let's check out the PHB glossary, since not everything made it into the SRD...

Level: A measure of advancement or power applied to several areas of the game. See caster level, character level, class level and spell level.

The only one that makes sense for us is character level. The character level entry is a load of bull that for most characters, character level = class level, but familiars are classless. However, the Hice Dice entry...

Hit Dice: A measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items and effectsthat affect a certain number of Hit Dice of creatures.

Although it's only explicitly true for spells like Sleep or Holy Word, it would be silly for hit dice not to be the same as level for other spells/effects that mention level anywhere in their wording. It is more inconsistent for hit dice = character level only for some spells/effects and not for others, so I'll pull a Caelic here and side with consistency that hit dice = character level more or less all the times it matters. And finally...

Hit Dice

For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.

So negative levels check "current level" to see if you're dead, which in turn check "character level", which in turn check "hit dice", which use the master's character level, since it is always higher than familiar hit dice unless you are breaking the game somehow (corner cases which may or may not exist; I don't do familiar Op).
So the "do I have enough hit dice to not be dead" check looks at master's character level.

Trivia: An interesting thing to note is that by the wording, a 20th level character with 1 wizard level has a familiar that is just as hard to kill(if not more so from higher hit dice) than a 20th level wizard, though the familiars' other abilities might suck.

[AfterCrescent]

Okay. That's fine. Guess I've been doing it wrong. My bad.

[Alastar]

Well, at that point midnight, we need something to lay the smack on the big T I think.. Phaedrus and I handle buffing, and Bowen does grappling as well as some side buffing too I think.  Think you could manage to remove about 8-10 of his saves while laying the smack down on him like a crazed madman?

[BowenSilverclaw]

I'll probably try to get an Ur-Priest/Black Blood Cultist build going, so I can damage Big T with all my natural weapons when grappling. That should provide at least some damage

Too bad DCFS isn't allowed, that, coupled with Magical Locations would really help squeezing everything in, even if it's only for 1 or 2 feats

I should have the basics done this weekend.
And yes, I can help with the buffing, regardless of which build I'll be going with.

[Alastar]

Alright, I'm trying to find a way to cause humongous damage as an artificier.... is kinda hard, also, i'd like to be able to do the archer thing.... i don't want to polymorph though, cause i'd lose my awesome solar bonuses, which make me invulnerable to the tarrasque.


hmmmmm, even with a +5 bow, i'd only have a +35 to hit... anyone has ideas for me to pump out more damage?  Damaging spells seem unwise.... maybe go touch her with a lot of poison spells?

[Midnight_v]

Mr.T is immune to poison.

I pity the fool...

[Surreal]

But he's not immune to fear. Fancy that.

[PhaedrusXY]

Alright, I'm trying to find a way to cause humongous damage as an artificier.... is kinda hard, also, i'd like to be able to do the archer thing.... i don't want to polymorph though, cause i'd lose my awesome solar bonuses, which make me invulnerable to the tarrasque.


hmmmmm, even with a +5 bow, i'd only have a +35 to hit... anyone has ideas for me to pump out more damage?  Damaging spells seem unwise.... maybe go touch her with a lot of poison spells?

I'm going to stick a bunch of archery feats on my psicrystal, so whoever fuses with it will get them. Will talk more in PMs.

Edit: I'm still planning on launching a crazy number of arrows at the thing as touch attacks, each of which debuffs its SR and overall will dish out a lot of damage.

[Captaincurran]

I'd like to take part in this, I'll whip up a level 20 character ASAP. probably gonna be some sort of ranger or something, dunno yet. Provided of course, there's still a team with room.

[Vinom]

What's the best way to midigate the risk of attack of opertunity?

[PhaedrusXY]

What's the best way to midigate the risk of attack of opertunity?

Tumble is the easiest, if you're drawing it for moving. Having cover or total concealment also prevents AoOs. You can use a mount for cover as a non-action with a DC 15 ride check, which would work to prevent drawing an AoO. Of course, the mount might still draw one. However... "You can’t attack or cast spells while using your mount as cover."

[Midnight_v]

I have a question.

Has the miniatures handbook been intentionally left off? Or is there something wrong with that book I don't know about? Marshalls perhaps? I think I'd like access to it if theres not something broken you're trying to avoid, instead of simply missing it in the 3.5 books.
M_v

[Vinom]

What's the best way to midigate the risk of attack of opertunity?

Tumble is the easiest, if you're drawing it for moving.

Can I tumble on a charge for this prepose?
Can I tumble in midair for this prepose?

[Midnight_v]

I don't think so no... as "Acrobatic charge" that lets you tumble and jump as a part of a charge is implicitly given by prestige classes... but let me check epic uses of tumble... 1 sec.

Edit:
Wow as I read it I see no reason you can't tumble through the air, like if your air walking or something.
Its not even an action it just happens as a part of a move action.