[3.5] Half-Elf and Half-Orc redo

[DerWille]

 Whenever I read a guidebook to anything there's always two races that never get any love, Half-Elves and Half-Orcs. Why don't we show them a little bit of it?

Half Elf
Size: Medium
Base Speed: 30 ft
Ability Scores: +2 Charisma
Special:
Immunity to Sleep, +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects
Low-Light Vision As Player's Handbook
Elven Perception: +1 racial bonus to Spot, Listen, and Search checks.
Human Tenacity: +4 skill points at level 1, +1 skill points every level after.
Charismatic: +2 to all Charisma checks.
Dual Heritage: A Half-Elf is considered both an Elf and a Human for the purposes of all things related to race (Spells, Equipment, Feats, Classes, etc)
Bonus Languages: Elven and Common
Favored Classes: Any


Half Orc
Size: Medium
Base Speed: 30 ft
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, -2 Charisma
Special:
Dark Vision: As Player's Handbook
Human Tenacity: +4 skill points at level 1, +1 skill points every level after.
Intimidating: Intimidate is always a class skill for Half-Orcs, in addition they receive a +3 racial bonus to all intimidate checks.
Potent: +2 to all Strength Checks.
Dual Heritage: A Half-Orc is considered both an Orc and a Human for the purposes of all things related to race (Spells, Equipment, Feats, Classes, etc)
Bonus Languages: Orcish and Common
Favored Classes: Any

Concerns/Explanations:

Half-Elf: I'm a little concerned that +2 Charisma without penalty might be a bit too good and would naturally force any player into playing either a Sorcerer or Bard into playing a Half-Elf instead. However at the same time, charisma is the least powerful (and most powerful) stat in the game. Also, with all the bonus skill points, Half-Elves might be too good at being skill monkeys.

Half-Orc: I feel more comfortable about these guys. I've seen alot of guides write, "Why be Half-Orc when there's Water Orcs?" True, so in comparison to them, I felt that giving a +2 on strength checks would allow a Half-Orc to compete when using maneuvers such as grapple, trip, or bull rush compared to a Water Orc's higher strength and damage. I included a +3 racial bonus to Intimidate to overcome the -2 to charisma so they could receive an overall bonus of +2.

Both - I included the +1 to skill points to both races because it's one of the two traits humans are most known well known for. I feel that an extra feat is something that should stay human only (I'm looking at you strong heart halflings) as that is their major strength as a race. The skill points while useful, aren't overwhelming powerful help flavor the two races as being half human.

What do you think? I'm planning on offering these two races as alternatives for the game I'm about to run in a few weeks. Did they hit the mark or do Half-Elves and Half-Orcs still blow and not worth picking?

[kurashu]

I would say balance out the half elf by giving it a minus two to either strength or constitution. Either way it is a natural choice for sorcerer and bard (don't forget warlocks who use saves and favored souls) bit the penalty will help to balance it some that way you end up with a lesser aasimar.

Other than that they look good. Maybe give the half Orc intimidate based off of strength?

[DerWille]

 For Half-Elves, I want to stay away from a Con penalty because that's the exact reason that Elves are considered suboptimial for every single class out there. A strength penalty could work. Part of me was thinking that maybe a -2 Wis penalty as an option too.

 For Half-Orcs, wasn't there a feat or a paragon class or something that let's you use strength instead of charisma for intimidate? I was trying not to interfere with that.

[Midnight_v]

1. you're right, never give anything a penalty to con, if you want it played

2. Your fixes?  I like quite a bit.

[Dilvish]

Good fixes. It makes them worth playing.

The Con penalty is an aberration, I agree.

If you must give a penalty to half-elves, a Wis penalty would be better and easier to justify, in my opinion.

[RobbyPants]

Half-Elf: I'm a little concerned that +2 Charisma without penalty might be a bit too good and would naturally force any player into playing either a Sorcerer or Bard into playing a Half-Elf instead. However at the same time, charisma is the least powerful (and most powerful) stat in the game. Also, with all the bonus skill points, Half-Elves might be too good at being skill monkeys.

I would shy away from a bonus to Cha for half elves without a penalty unless you simply removed the penalty from other races.  I don't think you need a penalty to offset a bonus (because the penalty doesn't make the race weaker, it just limits its options), but I think all standard races should be the same in this regard.  So I'd say penalties for all or penalties for none.

Half-Orc: I feel more comfortable about these guys. I've seen alot of guides write, "Why be Half-Orc when there's Water Orcs?" True, so in comparison to them, I felt that giving a +2 on strength checks would allow a Half-Orc to compete when using maneuvers such as grapple, trip, or bull rush compared to a Water Orc's higher strength and damage. I included a +3 racial bonus to Intimidate to overcome the -2 to charisma so they could receive an overall bonus of +2.

In my own personal fix, I moved the -2 penalty to Int with no Cha penalty, which naturally took care of the Intimidate penalty.  Ultimately, I guess it doesn't matter too much, and your +3 bonus to Intimidate gives the same net result.  I guess it depends on which you'd rather see: half-orc wizards or half-orc sorcerers.  Personally, I liked the idea of half-orc sorcerers better, so I went the route of an Int penalty.

Both - I included the +1 to skill points to both races because it's one of the two traits humans are most known well known for. I feel that an extra feat is something that should stay human only (I'm looking at you strong heart halflings) as that is their major strength as a race. The skill points while useful, aren't overwhelming powerful help flavor the two races as being half human.

I also gave this to my half-elves, but I never considered it for half-orcs.  Nice.

[DerWille]

Thanks for the feed back everyone.

Half-Elf: I'm a little concerned that +2 Charisma without penalty might be a bit too good and would naturally force any player into playing either a Sorcerer or Bard into playing a Half-Elf instead. However at the same time, charisma is the least powerful (and most powerful) stat in the game. Also, with all the bonus skill points, Half-Elves might be too good at being skill monkeys.

I would shy away from a bonus to Cha for half elves without a penalty unless you simply removed the penalty from other races.  I don't think you need a penalty to offset a bonus (because the penalty doesn't make the race weaker, it just limits its options), but I think all standard races should be the same in this regard.  So I'd say penalties for all or penalties for none.

Half-Orc: I feel more comfortable about these guys. I've seen alot of guides write, "Why be Half-Orc when there's Water Orcs?" True, so in comparison to them, I felt that giving a +2 on strength checks would allow a Half-Orc to compete when using maneuvers such as grapple, trip, or bull rush compared to a Water Orc's higher strength and damage. I included a +3 racial bonus to Intimidate to overcome the -2 to charisma so they could receive an overall bonus of +2.

In my own personal fix, I moved the -2 penalty to Int with no Cha penalty, which naturally took care of the Intimidate penalty.  Ultimately, I guess it doesn't matter too much, and your +3 bonus to Intimidate gives the same net result.  I guess it depends on which you'd rather see: half-orc wizards or half-orc sorcerers.  Personally, I liked the idea of half-orc sorcerers better, so I went the route of an Int penalty.

Both - I included the +1 to skill points to both races because it's one of the two traits humans are most known well known for. I feel that an extra feat is something that should stay human only (I'm looking at you strong heart halflings) as that is their major strength as a race. The skill points while useful, aren't overwhelming powerful help flavor the two races as being half human.

I also gave this to my half-elves, but I never considered it for half-orcs.  Nice.

 I agree with you actually. It's one thing I really liked about 4e/Pathfinder is that their races had no penalties. I might just do that too, free feat vs +2 ability score is still hard to make and to be honest, I think I would take the feat over the ability score, especially in games where there aren't flaws.

 As for Half-Orcs, I was trying to figure out what I could handle more, "You get a free skill point! Wait, no you don't, your int takes it away." or "You're intimidating! Actually, you have the personality of a brick wall that so bites you in the ass when you're trying to bully that kid." And ultimately, I'd rather have the free skill point over a boost to intimidate.