This entire time your whole justification for why Dread Necromancers are so amazing is that they can use Planar Binding.
No, that was my response to the claim that Dread Necros have no game breaking.
Then stop bringing it up... the claim is that they're non game breaking out of the box. Every class can be made to break the game with the right gear or other combo. I can break the game with a Commoner if I buy a Candle of Invocation... does that mean Commoners are game breakers?
So you have admitted it is not free or unfettered, Now you can read the Mage of the Arcane Order, and see that it is PHB spells, not all spells. Also the levels that you actually get access to all those spells is not "level 1" or "level 7" the level you first get into the class.
It was a hyperbole, but the main thing is you get access every single spell in the PHB (and potentially more than that). Unless you think core Wizards aren't that strong, your claim that a Dread Necromancer is on even footing with a Sorc/MotAO is absolutely ludicrous. I don't know what this bit about level 1 and level 7 is referring to, but the class gives access to plenty of spell levels right away... you first enter the class at level 6 (you have the prerequisites by level 5, it only needs 8 ranks) and at that level you already have spell pool access to 3 spell levels. There's a slight delay where at level 8 you don't get 4th level spell pool... but as soon as you hit level 9 (and from then on) you always have access to spell pool spells at the highest level you can cast.
So what exactly is your issue here?
No it doesn't. Man this is hilarious, how are you even claiming to know anything at all about the game when you can't figure out how to Planar Bind any creature you can Planar Bind without taking Arcane Disciple at all.
Ah, you mean with items, which have nothing to do with what the class can do? Yay, a Sorcerer can take Knowstones too (so can Favored Souls) and have any spell off the Sorc/Wiz list they want (Cleric, for the FS). And they can have Runestaffs to for the same effect. So what? And see how we're back to Planar Binding being your main thing here?
So... Two spells that are worth a spell known slot. Well, and Miracle, but level 18 doesn't impress me too much.
You know, you whine about how everything I mention is all about game breakers, but when I list solid useful spells that are reasonable in game you immediate call them all worthless. At some point you're going to have to chose between "JaronK is all about game breaking stuff" and "JaronK doesn't know how to optimize." Trying to accuse me of both just looks silly.
But I'll take this as an admission that you don't know much about the Cleric list, if you really can't find any good spells in it.
1) You can Planar Bind anything without ever using a single feat on Arcane Disciple.
2) You are being disingenuous, even if it did in fact require two feats, you wouldn't spend those feats in a game that bans it. It's also actually an infinite number of tricks that the DM has to ban, but whatever. I also didn't say zero feats as in "has zero feats" I said zero feats are spent being able to Planar Bind.
You said "Zero feats" in response to the claim that it took two feats to Planar Bind and one feat for self healing. And yes, you can use items instead, but so can a Sorcerer (and he gets a LOT more out of Knowstones than a DN does).
So now we are adding feats to the Binder to get it to bind things that are crap, and then replace them with non crap bindings, so we can say they can heal and still do other things. Okay.
You don't need to spend any feats to bind Buer. Expel Vestige is just if you decide that all day healing isn't what you want that day. Point is, all day healing is really really easy to get and a number of classes do it MUCH better than a Dread Necromancer (who has to burn actions to do it, does it really slowly, and can only do it to people who are powered by negative energy).
Yes, they are, as they are literally Sorc/Wizard/Cleric spells, and some of the better ones.
They get ONE of the big power Sor/Wiz spells. Maybe two if you call Animate Dead one (but you didn't seem impressed by Animate Dead a full spell level lower when the Favored Soul was being talked about, so I assume you think that spell isn't good enough). It's hilarious watching you talk about how Sorcerers aren't good enough, but think that one Sorc spell makes DNs godly. Newsflash: the Sorcerer gets 43 of the best spells on that list, and with Knowstones (since you wanted to talk so much about gear) they get even more.
What's bigger, one or 43? Even if you want to try and count a few more of the DN spells as being on the top, you're not getting anywhere near what the Sorcerer's rocking out with.
Are you kidding? Have you ever even read the spell? It does fireball level damage. It does the same 1d6 per CL that every other blast spell does, and it's reflex half too. It doesn't kill CR appropriate enemies in two hits, or even 3, and yes, if you apply so much metamagic that it would be a 12th level spell without reduction it can be pretty solid, but so can four hundred other spells. It's a blasting spell that doesn't suck ass thanks to force damage and a one round stun, and being party friendly. Great. That's not the best spell out there.
Kaelik, Fireball caps at 10d6. Wings of flurry is uncapped (and many blast spells do 1d6/two caster levels). Fireball is the most resisted energy type (fire) while Wings of Flurry is the least resisted type (force) and can tag ethereals easily. Wings of Flurry gets a bonus d6 if you're dragonblooded (Kobolds, Spellscales, Dragonborn). Wings of Flurry hits enemies only, Fireball hits friendlies (often times the way people get clumped is they're fighting in a melee). They're not comparable. And while you can talk about a 12th level spell without reduction all you want, but if you're a blaster, it's the way to go... Arcane Thesis + Twin Spell + Sculpt Spell (which is appropriate if you want to blast) means a 7th level spell that does, for a 14th level Kobold with an Orange Ioun Stone and no dragonwrought cheese or anything, 126 damage on average with two saves or be dazed for a round to everything you can hit (which should really be every enemy if done right, and shutting down enemy actions while killing them is amazing). That'll two shot a CR 18 Nightcrawler or CR 16 Nightwalker, sometimes one shotting the lower hp of those, and it'll even stun lock the Terrasque (though SR might be an issue on that last one). Mindflayer Sorcerers at CR 17 go down in a single shot (you think their +9 ref save will save them?) as do CR 15 Maruts. Plus it has no trouble dropping groups of the same (especially lower CR groups), usually doing it in a single hit.
This ain't fireball (which would, with the same combination, do a whopping 70 damage with no stun).
And no, it's not the best spell out there, it's the best blasting spell out there, and it's great for ending encounters... and it works better than any comparable DN spell for that purpose.
1) Oh goody, more insults about how I've never played a class. That's totally new and different from every argument you've ever had with anyone.
You think DNs get an infinite number of goons to fight for them. Ergo, you haven't played the class. Watch:
2) Let me explain how infinite works. It means that it doesn't matter if they suck, because you have infinity.
Right, that's not how infinity works. Here's what you actually get:
After each fight, assuming you have onyxs to burn (which you should try to have), you can raise the dead critters. What you get is zombies or skeletons (preferably the latter), which now have halved BAB and no interesting special abilities. Their CR is often far lower than the stuff you're fighting, making them rather useless. They can't share the same space, so you can't get too many of them, and while they don't die from hp damage easily they still can't last long. They're worthless against anything that can evade them (read: flying stuff, ranged stuff, hidden ambushy stuff in any form of difficult terrain) and in general against the really dangerous fights. Their damage is usually incredibly low. The DM gets to pick what critters you're allowed to have... if the DM is sending lots of casters and such against you, their skeletons will be almost worthless to you. Consider that a Mindflayer Sorcerer is CR 17, but a Skeleton Mindflayer Sorcerer is overconned at CR 8 with no interesting abilities at all.
So no, not infinite. Just a decent number of things that get in the way of each other and don't do much of anything.
Not by most Constructs, hence the statement.
Remember, you keep talking about level 12+ when you'd have Planar Binding. At that level you're starting to see Inevitables and such, which do in fact have intelligence and will happily bypass your troops. Golems, meanwhile, just smash them to pieces VERY fast... but you're past the level where Golems are an issue at this point, with only Greater Stone Golems and maybe Iron Golems being of appropriate CR.
So your example Sorcerer has Glitterdust, and what for a third level spell Stinking Cloud? Meanwhile, the Dread Necro has Fort save or lose, Will save or suck, Ray of Exhaustion, Summon Undead III, and an advanced learning, let's say Kelgore's Grave Mist, a fear aura, DR, Negative Energy Burst, and probably some undead minions. Yeah, those sound about on par.
Okay, which spells are you talking about here? If you meant Blindness for the fort save or lose, that's single target and completely inferior to Glitterdust (which is AoE and negates invisibility/hide). The will based save or suck... which one is that? I hope you don't mean Crushing Dispair with the piddly -2 penalties. Notice your really low range, and the fact that all you've got here is the ability to stop charging (lots of fatigue tricks). You're screwed against a Flesh Golem (see, at levels where you see those you don't even have that undead screen) or any other thing that doesn't care about most of your effects. And Rebuke Undead isn't exactly getting you great minions unless you can afford some serious turn resistance reducers and the DM is being really nice. Heck, even a few archers would ruin your day (all you have at serious range is Kelgore's). And did you just list DR 2 as being useful here? Do you realize how much of what you just mentioned (fear aura, negative energy burst, most of your spells) requires you to get close enough to get charged with your d6 HD, light armor, and DR 2?
Meanwhile... just Glitterdust seems to do it better than everything you just mentioned. That's a one shot fort based save or lose that hits an area for a level 2 spell.
Probably because you suck as a human being, and can't figure out how to Planar Bind, and you don't consider Arcane Thesis + Easy meta on a Loredrake Kobold to be cheese.
Ad Hominems aside, I've never said a Loredrake Kobold wasn't cheese (go ahead, try to quote me saying anything like that), and I know exactly how to Planar Bind stuff. It's not that hard. Heck, I regularly say that using Dragonwrought Kobolds is over the top for most games.
So... that was funny. 1) Yes, your favorite bullshit cheese is too cheese,
You just got finished saying that Arcane Thesis + Twin Spell wasn't all that strong, now you turn around and call it cheese.
It's a blaster Sorcerer. That's not cheese, that's actually a weaker way to play. If it were a Venerable Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold, that might be cheese (though if all he does is blast, maybe not).
that's the whole point of why your tier system is made of ass, you assume that things you don't like are banned, and things you do like are never touched.
Yes, that's got to be it. Or I just said equivalent optimization is the name of the game. One of the two is correct.
So Sorcerers can dip into Dragon for feats that meta reduce ontop of Arcane Thesis, the third most absurd feat in the game, but if a Dread Necromancer tries to Planar Bind a legal target, the Banhammer must fall.
Wait, what feats in Dragon have I mentioned in this? YOU brought up Easy Metamagic. I didn't. Are you saying you wouldn't ban Efreeti bindings? Or that anything I've said for Sorcerers is as powerful as that?
"But I was using Item Familiar and Warbeast Template responsibly on my Factotum, so it's allowed, but you are using Item Familiar and Warbeast unfairly on your Rogue, so it shouldn't be allowed, and that's what Factotums are better than Rogues."
I've never said anything like that. I believe what I said was closer to "don't whine about a Human with an Item Familiar riding a domesticated mount being cheesy when you're using a Necropolitan Strongheart Halfling with an Item Familiar and an even bigger mount." Equivalence, mate. If you want to test the power of classes, you have to make sure that everything other than the class is the same. It's really rather basic.
Also, learn to read. There is no limit on Wish, it's so funny how little you actually know about the rules.
Ah, so now you're using that reading of Wish. So let me get this straight, you think a system designed to be functional for most games should take into account wishing for items of any arbitrarily high value via Planar Binding combined with buying specialized items, but not something overpowered like blasting with a Sorcerer. Got it.
I guess I haven't figured out why you aren't arguing that Warmages are overpowered too. I mean, they can do every single thing you've attributed to Dread Necromancers, given the right items. Of course, so can a Monk if he pumps UMD...