Tier System For Classes (Repost)

[lans]

Dragon Shaman is on par with Marshall. The Marshal has better auras, skills and grant move action.
Dragon Shaman has healing, restoration, divination, breath weapon and can probably make the party breath underwater.

Optimization its Entangling breath+invocation vs quad aura.

[X-Codes]

High tier 5/low tier 4 for the dragon shaman, leaning towards tier 5.

It's ultimately a 5th wheel class, it doesn't fill any one role that well. It's most useful in larger parties that have the other roles already filled. Ultimately the marshall and dragonfire adept are better than what the dragon shaman does.

You may say tier 5, but what you describe is actually tier 4.  Tier 5 is reserved for classes that can really only do one thing and don't do it particularly well (read: Fighter).

[genuine]

[quote author=JaronK link=topic=5293.msg294693#msg294693 date=1279834175
Marshals are kind of hard to place.  They're kind of like Fighters... quite nice as a two level dip, but there's not a whole lot past that point. 

...

Thoughts?

JaronK[/quote]

I wonder if it might be worthwhile to have a second tier list - one list for the pure class, or for builds focused in the class, and a list where the class is only used as a dip.

Cleric, for example, remains useful as a one or two level dip even when the casting abilities aren't seriously utilized. Two levels of druid are pretty crappy if you don't use PrCing to advance casting and/or shapeshifting. In the same way classes like fighter and marshal get far better as a part of a build than when they're the actual focus of a build.

[ninjarabbit]

The marshal is a 7 or 8 level class at best.

There's only 4 minor auras worth taking: motivate charisma, motivate intellegence (for knowledge devotion), art of war (for tripping), and motivate dexterity (for initative).

[Mixster]

Dragon Shaman is on par with Marshall. The Marshal has better auras, skills and grant move action.
Dragon Shaman has healing, restoration, divination, breath weapon and can probably make the party breath underwater.

Optimization its Entangling breath+invocation vs quad aura.

Dragon shamans have no invocations.

[jameswilliamogle]

All my Dragon Shamans have exactly one least invocation.  (Dragon Magic ACF)

[Surreal]

As much as I like Dragon Shamans, I wouldn't put them any higher than tier 4. They have very strong and versatile healing/restoration abilities outside of casters, decent toughness and endurance (good hd, medium armor, a few immunities, energy resistance). Their power curve drops off by mid game when the casting classes start to accelerate, but that's the case for basically everyone aside from the casters themselves. Even if you play them "dumb", in a combat setting you're alternating between an attack, breath weapon, and healing/restoring which is hardly useless.

They do make a nice dip class, and benefit hugely from multiclassing.

[lans]

They also get 1 divination ability thats pretty decent.

[Kuroimaken]

Quick chip in: the only online vestige that really makes Binders go completely wild is Zceryll. The others tend to either be one-trick ponies or very situational, and don't break the world quite so badly.

[Lycanthromancer]

If you take metabreath feats, you can make the Dragon Shaman a pretty decent controller.  Dragonfire Adepts can't take them.

What is stopping Dragonfire Adepts from taking metabreath feats?

No recharge time on their BW. They can do it if they are also dragonborn and choose the BW for that.

Their recharge time is 1 round. QED

[Benly]

No recharge time on their BW. They can do it if they are also dragonborn and choose the BW for that.

Their recharge time is 1 round. QED

This is not true. It is an at-will standard action with no other limitations than action cost. A DFA who received multiple standard actions or had a hypothetical "Quicken Supernatural Ability" feat could use his breath weapon multiple times per round.

Also, QED doesn't work like that.

[bearsarebrown]

Power Surge from Dragon 313 gives them a recharge time.

[Brainpiercing]

Quick chip in: the only online vestige that really makes Binders go completely wild is Zceryll. The others tend to either be one-trick ponies or very situational, and don't break the world quite so badly.

Not sure where binders suddenly came from, but...

I think Binders are consistently weaker than both the Tier 3 initiators and the Tier 3 Incarnum classes (which, while not on the front page, would be at least the Totemist) - both of the latter are easier to build, have more focused and more easily combined abilities, and are more dippable. In fact, even though I've often thought I wanted to play a binder, actually making one that satisfied my needs - at levels below dual-vestiges, no less - actually put me off. Most vestiges offer a few powerful, yet almost randomly unfocused abilties.

So I agree. With Zceryll and liberal applications of summoning replacements, fine, but without...

[Kuroimaken]

Quick chip in: the only online vestige that really makes Binders go completely wild is Zceryll. The others tend to either be one-trick ponies or very situational, and don't break the world quite so badly.

Not sure where binders suddenly came from, but...

I think Binders are consistently weaker than both the Tier 3 initiators and the Tier 3 Incarnum classes (which, while not on the front page, would be at least the Totemist) - both of the latter are easier to build, have more focused and more easily combined abilities, and are more dippable. In fact, even though I've often thought I wanted to play a binder, actually making one that satisfied my needs - at levels below dual-vestiges, no less - actually put me off. Most vestiges offer a few powerful, yet almost randomly unfocused abilties.

So I agree. With Zceryll and liberal applications of summoning replacements, fine, but without...

The thing about Binders is that despite their ability use several tricks, the usefulness of said tricks is limited by your ability to plan ahead. Andras, for example, makes a perfectly good vestige for you to bind before level 8... if you have a Valorous lance and aren't going underground. Without SOME degree of specialization, their bag of tricks just isn't that nifty. Zceryll actually only elevates them to Tier 2 because it allows them summon Genies, and effectively give them infinite Wishes... and that's it. Even as Tier 2s, they're REALLY LOW Tier 2s, because that's the only gamebreaking trick they can pull off.

[lans]

For the online vestiges I think there is a crafting one, and one that allows you to animate a box with a grapple check of 1337.

Binders probably tend  to be on the weak side until level 8, when they can get 2 binds.

[Benly]

Binders is that despite their ability use several tricks, the usefulness of said tricks is limited by your ability to plan ahead. Andras, for example, makes a perfectly good vestige for you to bind before level 8... if you have a Valorous lance and aren't going underground. Without SOME degree of specialization, their bag of tricks just isn't that nifty. Zceryll actually only elevates them to Tier 2 because it allows them summon Genies, and effectively give them infinite Wishes... and that's it. Even as Tier 2s, they're REALLY LOW Tier 2s, because that's the only gamebreaking trick they can pull off.

Actually, that's one of the party tricks they don't get. Summoned creatures don't use spell-like abilities that would cost XP as spells. Zceryll binders do, however, get unlimited uses per day of any non-XP-costing spell-like ability that can be used by any creature on the SM1-9 lists (substitution creatures included), which includes a surprising variety of stuff, including a number that normally have expensive material components. Zceryll's other benefits are also pretty strong, but not T2 material.

[Kuroimaken]

Binders is that despite their ability use several tricks, the usefulness of said tricks is limited by your ability to plan ahead. Andras, for example, makes a perfectly good vestige for you to bind before level 8... if you have a Valorous lance and aren't going underground. Without SOME degree of specialization, their bag of tricks just isn't that nifty. Zceryll actually only elevates them to Tier 2 because it allows them summon Genies, and effectively give them infinite Wishes... and that's it. Even as Tier 2s, they're REALLY LOW Tier 2s, because that's the only gamebreaking trick they can pull off.

Actually, that's one of the party tricks they don't get. Summoned creatures don't use spell-like abilities that would cost XP as spells. Zceryll binders do, however, get unlimited uses per day of any non-XP-costing spell-like ability that can be used by any creature on the SM1-9 lists (substitution creatures included), which includes a surprising variety of stuff, including a number that normally have expensive material components. Zceryll's other benefits are also pretty strong, but not T2 material.

Wait up. Can you get me a quote on this specific bit?

Although I'll concede the rest.

[Benly]

Wait up. Can you get me a quote on this specific bit?

Although I'll concede the rest.

From the SRD, under the Summoning subschool: "A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells. "

Zceryll's ability specifically summons the creatures, and so they're restricted by the summoned-creature rules. On the other hand, it does not constitute summoning them with a Summon Monster spell, so a few creatures that have funny interactions with Summon Monster specifically don't trigger their abilities (Wastrilith, I'm looking at you.)

Now, with that aside, it does give you access to about a billion different spell-likes unlimited times per day, which is pretty potent if you leverage it right - Wish just isn't one of them.

[JaronK]

This is why endless wish tricks require calling, not summoning, efreetis.  Binders being T2 with the summoning vestige is because they can easily have many creatures up at all times, with a huge variety of abilities ready to go at a moment's notice (or, at most, 5 rounds notice).  This means stuff like endless healing, any movement mode needed, all varieties of detection... pretty much anything you might need.  Plus there's the vestige that lets Binders make magic items all they want, and that leads to all kinds of fun.

JaronK

[Benly]

This is why endless wish tricks require calling, not summoning, efreetis.  Binders being T2 with the summoning vestige is because they can easily have many creatures up at all times, with a huge variety of abilities ready to go at a moment's notice (or, at most, 5 rounds notice).  This means stuff like endless healing, any movement mode needed, all varieties of detection... pretty much anything you might need.  Plus there's the vestige that lets Binders make magic items all they want, and that leads to all kinds of fun.

JaronK

With regards to "many creatures at all times", it's important to note that the designer clarified in a later post on the Wizards boards that the power is intended to have a duration of 1 round/EBL, so you don't get the Hound Archon Army that initial literal readings of the power led to. This doesn't make the power any less versatile and you can still always have at least one creature (more depending on level) but it's not a pocket army.