Tier System For Classes (Repost)

[Brainpiercing]

Hmmm.... I would say actually choosing the spells on the summoned monster casters is beyond the scope of a summoning spell. You're just going to have to go with what the GM gives you.

However, that still gives you a load of spells.

But I maintain that level appropriate abilites are what matter, and those that you get rarely allow you to do Tier 2 stuff at the time when others are doing Tier 2 stuff.

At level 11, when you are getting Zceryll, what could you summon? Which abilites allow you to take the campaign off track, as other Tier 2 abilities can?

Summon Monster 6:
Blur* – (2nd)(Bralani, Eladrin)(6/x)(at will)
Charm Person – (1st)(Bralani, Eladrin)(6/13)(at will)
Charm Person – (1st)(Green Abishai)(6/13)(3/day)
Command – (1st)(Green Abishai)(3/13)(at will)
Create food and water – (3rd)(Janni, Genie)(7th/x)(1/day)
Cure Moderate Wounds – (2nd)(Pain Devil)(8/NA)(3/day)
Cure Serious Wounds – (3rd)(Bralani, Eladrin)(6/15)(2/day)
Disguise Self* - (1st)(Green Abishai)(6/NA)(at will)
Gust of Wind – (2nd)(Bralani, Eladrin)(6/14)(at will)
Quickened Fireball – (3rd)(Amnizu)(14/16)(3/day)
Invisibility* – (2nd)(Janni, Genie)(12/x)(3/day)
Lightning Bolt – (3rd)(Bralani, Eladrin)(6/15)(2/day)
Mirror Image* – (2nd)(Bralani, Eladrin)(6/x)(at will)
Ray of Enfeeblement – (1st)(Gulthir)(6/x)(5/day)
Scare – (2nd)(Gulthir)(6/16)(5/day)
Scare – (2nd)(Green Abishai)(6/14)(3/day)
See Invisibility* – (2nd)(Gulthir)(6/x)(at will)
Speak with animals – (1st)(Janni, Genie)(12/x)(3/day)
Suggestion – (3rd)(Green Abishai)(6/15)(1/day)
Vampiric Touch – (3rd)(Pain Devil)(8/NA)(at will)
Waves of Grief – (4th)(Pain Devil)(8/15)(3/day)
Wind Wall – (3rd)(Bralani, Eladrin)(6/x)(at will)
Wrack – (5th)(Green Abishai)(6/17)(1/day)

Which of these are Tier 2, even if you can spam them all day?

[Benly]

Which of these are Tier 2, even if you can spam them all day?

I think the basic issue here is that the Zceryll binder comes into Tier 2 in a different way than the other Tier 2s. The thing is that T1 is "do everything gamebreakingly well" and T3 is either "do everything pretty well or do one thing very well". Logically, "do everything very well" should be T2, but every other T2 class is "do one thing gamebreakingly well".

[Kuroimaken]

That sounds to me like a really high tier 3, but isn't the criteria for tier 2 to break the game, though in less ways than tier 1?

[InnaBinder]

That sounds to me like a really high tier 3, but isn't the criteria for tier 2 to break the game, though in less ways than tier 1?

Well, it's either the top-of-the-line Tier 3, or the bottom-of-the-barrel Tier 2.  Are you an optimist, or a pessimist?   

[Brainpiercing]

Well, not really break, but I think the intention was that Tier2s can also derail a campaign quite easily, just by fewer methods. (Well, you generally have to pick one and stick with it, while Tier 1s can pick and choose each morning.) And there's nothing much there in the summoned SLAs to warrant that, I would even say that summons get weaker the higher the levels get. If Zcerryl was a 1st, or at least 2nd level vestige, now THAT would be Tier 2 for a large portion of the game. Even Tier 1 for first few levels.

[Kuroimaken]

That sounds to me like a really high tier 3, but isn't the criteria for tier 2 to break the game, though in less ways than tier 1?

Well, it's either the top-of-the-line Tier 3, or the bottom-of-the-barrel Tier 2.  Are you an optimist, or a pessimist?   

All things considered, my DM is pretty strict about Tier 2s and 1s, so.

[Shadowhunter]

I don't think that the other vestiges push Binder to Tier 2.
Closer to the line between tier 3 and 2, sure, but not over it.

The only thing I've seen that's broken is the Divination Machine.

Knowledge / Divination-like:
7, 10, 15, 20 [The Triad] + [Dantalion] + [Naberius] + [Desharis] + [Cabiri]: Bardic Knowledge equal to binder level, +8 on Knowledge checks (RAW, should stack, but talk to your DM), and +5 from Call to Mind, for a minimum of +23 on all Knowledge checks (you can't take 10 or 20, though).  Use Naberius's Skills to get Knowledge:Local for any place in existence, and Knowledge:Nobility&Royalty, to learn everything about that location (even planar cities! :lop:): Desharis gets you another +6 on Kn:Local, for a +29 modifier.  "Yes, I know the answer, even though I know not the question, nor have I ever been there."  Cabiri is a one-vestige Divination MACHINE: Divination, as the spell, every round.  Borderline Broken.

Only problem is that you can't use 5 vestiges, but the main point still stands.
Note that Cabiri doesn't give Divination, that's Astartoth, Diabolus of Baator.

Cabiri "only" gives a +10 DC to all spells and spell-likes from the Scrying subschool...

Zceryll might have you able to spam summons, but I'm still doubtful as to what it gives that pushes Binder into Tier 2.

[Surreal]

Are there any summon lists that have swarms? Because then you have the whole Naberius + Dark Speech thing going, altough that's more an abuse of the feat than binders themselves...

[JaronK]

The other thing to consider is Astaroth, also an online vestige, which lets the Binder create any magic item he wants (at least, any that only requires one feat) without needing prerequisite spells.  Note that the Caster Level bit is undefined, and even Custserv's answer on the topic is "ask your DM, we dunno."  It was most likely supposed to be that your CL is your Binder Level.  If that's the case, the ability to make any magic item as needed is extremely powerful (it's one of the strongest things Warlocks have too).  Consider the fact that you now have access to any spell, if you just make a scroll of it.  Other options include that other casters were supposed to be able to donate CL (unlikely, but plausible) or that this only works with Anima Mages (currently the precise RAW interpretation, but Anima Mages already have so much going for them that Astaroth is just a sideline bonus to them).

But it was the combination of Astaroth and Zceryll that made me think Binders hit T2.  You've got whatever ability you want when you want it (though mostly lower level abilities), you've always got exactly the right type of minions for the current fight... and you can make whatever magic items you want as well.

JaronK

[Kuroimaken]

The other thing to consider is Astaroth, also an online vestige, which lets the Binder create any magic item he wants (at least, any that only requires one feat) without needing prerequisite spells.  Note that the Caster Level bit is undefined, and even Custserv's answer on the topic is "ask your DM, we dunno."  It was most likely supposed to be that your CL is your Binder Level.  If that's the case, the ability to make any magic item as needed is extremely powerful (it's one of the strongest things Warlocks have too).  Consider the fact that you now have access to any spell, if you just make a scroll of it.  Other options include that other casters were supposed to be able to donate CL (unlikely, but plausible) or that this only works with Anima Mages (currently the precise RAW interpretation, but Anima Mages already have so much going for them that Astaroth is just a sideline bonus to them).

But it was the combination of Astaroth and Zceryll that made me think Binders hit T2.  You've got whatever ability you want when you want it (though mostly lower level abilities), you've always got exactly the right type of minions for the current fight... and you can make whatever magic items you want as well.

JaronK

Can't use any of 'em for prerequisites, however, so you always have to pay the full crafting cost for them (beats beating full price, but still) and it doesn't give you more time to craft or diminish craft time either.

[JaronK]

Yup.  Which is why they're nowhere near Tier 1 (and near the bottom of Tier 2).  You still get access to game breaking stuff, as well as the solution to any problem... if you have the time to sit down and do it.  And the money. 

JaronK

[Kuroimaken]

Yup.  Which is why they're nowhere near Tier 1 (and near the bottom of Tier 2).  You still get access to game breaking stuff, as well as the solution to any problem... if you have the time to sit down and do it.  And the money. 

JaronK

With magic items it's a relatively minor problem. I mean, let's face it, there are about half a dozen ways of getting whatever loot you want. You can use Leadership for an artificer cohort, say Pazuzu a bunch of times for chain-binding efreeti, and that's just the solutions I can think of off the top of my head that don't require you to be a caster and have the feats (including Warlocks).

Let's say the first thing you decide to craft is a thought bottle, so your costs XP-wise are slashed down next to nothing. Even considering the spell-likes from summons, you don't have a magic "print money" button (unless I'm seriously missing something here). Sure, theoretically speaking, you could just sell your summons' spell-likes as services, but your profit margin would be fairly slim, all things considered. As far as game-breaking goes, that's pretty easy to stop. How gamebreaking is the ability to craft items compared to, say, diplomancing the Magic Mart's owner up and having him just HAND you whatever you need off his shelf?

[JaronK]

Diplomancing a magic mart's owner requires the DM throwing a diplomancable magic mart owner in front of you whose magic mart is big enough to give you exactly what you want and yet isn't actually protected from that.  I don't tend to count things where the DM is handing you power, because the DM can always hand you power. 

But the ability to just make a scroll of Planar Binding or any other spell that you want is a whole other issue.

JaronK

[Kuroimaken]

Diplomancing a magic mart's owner requires the DM throwing a diplomancable magic mart owner in front of you whose magic mart is big enough to give you exactly what you want and yet isn't actually protected from that.  I don't tend to count things where the DM is handing you power, because the DM can always hand you power. 

But the ability to just make a scroll of Planar Binding or any other spell that you want is a whole other issue.

JaronK

Ah, the age-old argument of "this depends on the DM doing stuff". No it doesn't. You can just head on over to Sigil and get your ass to the market. And you can do worse things with diplomacy anyways, such as turning the BBEG into a daisy-eating hippie or commanding the dragons of the world to set it on (choose your favorite element here).

Further, not the question I asked. What I asked was: compared to diplomancy, how gamebreaking IS the ability to make magical items? Your example is scrolls. You're still spending gold and XP to get them, which at least in theory, are finite resources. If you could do it WITHOUT resource expenditure, there's no argument there.

[JaronK]

Ah, the age-old argument of "this depends on the DM doing stuff". No it doesn't. You can just head on over to Sigil and get your ass to the market. And you can do worse things with diplomacy anyways, such as turning the BBEG into a daisy-eating hippie or commanding the dragons of the world to set it on (choose your favorite element here).

...assuming Sigil exists in your DM's game world.  It hasn't in any of the games I've played in (most DMs I've seen seem to like making their own worlds).  What if you're in Eberron?  In Althas?  In Greyhawk?  Sigil only exists in the Planescape campaign setting, unless your DM decides to borrow it.  We did have the City of Brass in one campaign function similarly... but in that game, we couldn't go there due to restrictions on our movements.  In another game, we had various cities that served vaguely similar functions that we could travel through regularly.

Further, not the question I asked. What I asked was: compared to diplomancy, how gamebreaking IS the ability to make magical items? Your example is scrolls. You're still spending gold and XP to get them, which at least in theory, are finite resources. If you could do it WITHOUT resource expenditure, there's no argument there.

Resources are expended, but not specific resources.  Money exists in every campaign world, as does Exp (at least by RAW).  Magic marts where you can get any item you want do not necessarily exist in all campaign worlds.  It's like builds that require very specific magic items (like the near infinite damage crossbow wielding Warblade build, which requires two Splitting Aptitude Great Crossbows and a method of having extra arms) vs builds that only need general magic items (most charger characters just need a decent two handed weapon to work with).  The first only works if the DM makes those items available to you.  The second should be possible in any world that follows the DMG guidelines (note that the DMG only expects full magic marts in metropolises... if you're playing in the classic "once this was a great nation, but now it's fallen into disrepair" sort of world, such metropolises may be few and far between.

As a rule, I tend to rank classes lower if they require specific campaign settings or resources to get their power, and higher if they don't.  A class that makes its own magic items (out of very common materials, such as simple gold and xp) is better than one that depends on finding exactly the right ones.  Dread Necromancers would be a lot stronger if I assumed you could always find 10 headed pyrohydras to reanimate.  Bards would be much higher if I assumed there was always some superpowerful guy that you could walk up to and diplomance/glibness away at to gain all his power.  But those things are by no means guaranteed.

JaronK

[Tshern]

How about Binders at lower levels? The true effect of the summonings only seem to hit the spot later on. Also, Dread Necromancer has Planar binding, so has minions at his disposal as well, so it seems hardly fair Binders are so definitely set above them.

[JaronK]

Note that Dread Necromancers lack Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor, which means when they use planar binding all they can do is summon stuff into a trap (I tend to use Ghoul Glyphs) and kill it, then raise it from the dead as a skeleton or something.  So instead of getting all kinds of awesome abilities (from the broken endless wishes to more manageable abilities), all you get is something like a skeletal nightmare (nice transport option due to flight) or a somewhat decent melee.  You can't use any of their abilities until you can create Bone Creatures with Create Undead, but since the CL required for a Bone Creature is basically the DM's call, there's no guarantee you'll actually get the really strong stuff like Bone Creature Efreetis (I'd probably set epic CL requirements for that, because the CL is supposed to be based on the power of the critter and 3 free wishes is epic power!).

A lot of people who rank Dread Necromancers as being super powerful just assume the Magic Circle thing was a mistake and give it to them, but at that point you're just house ruling them up in power.  By RAW, when they get is just melee and transport only minions, and even they aren't that amazing.  Honestly, I always thought they're written as intended in this respect, as it makes perfect sense and is far more balanced.  Then again, they do have that obvious glitch in their spell list with one spell being in two levels, indicating they were supposed to have one other spell (probably).

Binders at lower levels are distinctly in the T3 area (the online vestiges aren't available before then).  They've got solid flexibility, but other than the diplomancer option for Naberius they don't have anything game breaking.  Certainly they can get the job done and are useful to most parties.  As soon as you combine them with casters via Anima Mage and Tainted Sorcerer everything goes to heck, but that's more the casting side augmented by binding than it is the binding itself.

JaronK

[Kuroimaken]

Okay, couple of pointers.

As a rule, I tend to rank classes lower if they require specific campaign settings or resources to get their power, and higher if they don't.  A class that makes its own magic items (out of very common materials, such as simple gold and xp) is better than one that depends on finding exactly the right ones.

Fair point. Albeit a relative one, as it's more dependent on something outside player control. In a world with magic marts, diplomacy will beat crafting your own items, whereas in other scenarios, it gets more powerful. My point being that diplomacy will be game-breaking all the time, whereas the usefulness of crafting depends on the setting itself. And even so the Binder isn't be-all end-all as a crafter there due to the limitation on the feats chosen.

Oh yeah, keep in mind that just because you can craft them doesn't mean you know every magic item in existence to cherry-pick the ones most useful to you.

Binders at lower levels are distinctly in the T3 area (the online vestiges aren't available before then).  They've got solid flexibility, but other than the diplomancer option for Naberius they don't have anything game breaking.  Certainly they can get the job done and are useful to most parties.  As soon as you combine them with casters via Anima Mage and Tainted Sorcerer everything goes to heck, but that's more the casting side augmented by binding than it is the binding itself.

One point people seem to ignore all the time about Binders is that foreknowledge plays a HUGE part into their versatility. At lower levels, even if you're lucky enough to score/build yourself a Vestige Phylactery AND have Expel Vestige, you're going to swap Vestiges at most twice a day (and make bad pacts in the process as far as Expel Vestige is concerned). The situation improves once you're able to bind multiple vestiges, though as your options increase, you keep wanting more of them at once, because some of the lower-level vestiges remain fairly solid even at mid-to-high levels (Naberius for the faster ability healing, for example).

Also: BY ITSELF, Naberius doesn't make you into the ultimate diplomacy expert. Even assuming you maxed out diplomacy (and Binders are Charisma-driven to begin with), the boon it grants doesn't automatically mean success (and up until level 8 he's going to be a sucktastic choice for combat, but anyhoo). It's once you start getting silly modifiers that he really factors in.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Eh, it's like one feat to get magic circle as a dread necromancer.  Or a couple level dip into rainbow servant.  No biggie.

[JaronK]

Eh, it's like one feat to get magic circle as a dread necromancer.  Or a couple level dip into rainbow servant.  No biggie.

That would be 10 levels of Rainbow Servant... hardly a dip.  And the simple fact is that all casting classes could gain more spells via a feat or two (you'll need two IIRC to get both Dimensional Anchor and Magic Circle).  They become more powerful in that case, obviously, but that's true of all casting classes.  Or you could do some Kobold nonsense and make even a Warmage godly.

And yeah, Naberius is just one part of being a diplomancer.  A standard diplomancer build would likely be Binder 1/Marshal 1/Warlock 1/Bard X, binding Naberius.

Meanwhile, no, Binders are certainly not the be-all end-all of crafting (if he was, we'd put him in Tier 1 and call him an Artificer) but it's still a huge bonus. 

JaronK