http://brilliantgameologists.com
July 30, 2014, 07:07:03 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: These boards are now READ ONLY. We've started over! So don't try posting here. Go here www.minmaxboards.com
 
   Home   Help Search Members Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 211011 times)
0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.
JaronK
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 4039


« on: August 05, 2009, 02:50:29 AM »

This is a repost of the earlier thread, which is being locked due to approaching 50 pages.  The last thread can be found here:  http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

My general philosophy is that the only balance that really matters in D&D is the interclass balance between the various PCs in a group.  If the group as a whole is very powerful and flexible, the DM can simply up the challenge level and complexity of the encounters.  If it's weak and inflexible, the DM can lower the challenge level and complexity.  Serious issues arise when the party is composed of some members which are extremely powerful and others which are extremely weak, leading to a situation where the DM has two choices: either make the game too easy for the strong members, or too hard for the weak members.  Neither is desireable.  Thus, this system is created for the following purposes:

1)  To provide a ranking system so that DMs know roughly the power of the PCs in their group

2)  To provide players with knowledge of where their group stands, power wise, so that they can better build characters that fit with their group.

3)  To help DMs who plan to use house rules to balance games by showing them where the classes stand before applying said house rules (how many times have we seen DMs pumping up Sorcerers or weakening Monks?).

4)  To help DMs judge what should be allowed and what shouldn't in their games.  It may sound cheesy when the Fighter player wants to be a Half Minotaur Water Orc, but if the rest of his party is Druid, Cloistered Cleric, Archivist, and Artificer, then maybe you should allow that to balance things out.  However, if the player is asking to be allowed to be a Venerable White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer and the rest of the party is a Monk, a Fighter, and a Rogue, maybe you shouldn't let that fly.

5)  To help homebrewers judge the power and balance of their new classes.  Pick a Tier you think your class should be in, and when you've made your class compare it to the rest of the Tier.  Generally, I like Tier 3 as a balance point, but I know many people prefer Tier 4.  If it's stronger than Tier 1, you definitely blew it.

This post is NOT intended to state which class is "best" or "sucks."  It is only a measure of the power and versitliity of classes for balance purposes.

Psionic classes are mostly absent simply because I don't have enough experience with them. Other absent classes are generally missing because I don't know them well enough to comment, though if I've heard a lot about them they're listed in itallics. Note that "useless" here means "the class isn't particularly useful for dealing with situation X" not "it's totally impossible with enough splat books to make a build that involves that class deal with situation X." "Capable of doing one thing" means that any given build does one thing, not that the class itself is incapable of being built in different ways. Also, "encounters" here refers to appropriate encounters... obviously, anyone can solve an encounter with purely mechanical abilities if they're level 20 and it's CR 1.

Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier in terms of tier descriptions, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level.  As a rule, parties function best when everyone in the party is within 2 Tiers of each other (so a party that's all Tier 2-4 is generally fine, and so is a party that's all Tier 3-5, but a party that has Tier 1 and Tier 5s in it may have issues).

As a further note, some classes have specific variants or options to them that drastically change their abilities.  These classes are noted on multiple tiers.  If a variant is not mentioned, it's in the same Tier as the standard class (for example, the Cloistered Cleric is not mentioned because it's T1 like the Cleric.  The same goes for the Battle Sorcerer and the Wilderness Rogue).  Classes in blue are on the high side of their Tier and can easily move up.  Classes in red are on the low side of their Tier and can easily move down.

The Tier System

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite (Spell to Power Variant)

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways.  Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges), Eurdite (No Spell to Power)

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so.  Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psychic Warrior

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Zhentarium Variant)

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight, CW Samurai (with Imperious Command available)

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai (without Imperious Command available), Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

And then there's the Truenamer, which is just broken (as in, the class was improperly made and doesn't function appropriately).  Highly optimized (to the point of being able to spam their abilities) a Truenamer would be around Tier 4, but with lower optimization it rapidly drops to Tier 6.

Now, obviously these rankings only apply when mechanical abilities are being used... in a more social oriented game where talking is the main way of solving things (without using diplomacy checks), any character can shine. However, when the mechanical abilities of the classes in question are being used, it's a bad idea to have parties with more than two tiers of difference.

It is interesting to note the disparity between the core classes... one of the reasons core has so many problems. If two players want to play a nature oriented shape shifter and a general sword weilder, you're stuck with two very different tiered guys in the party (Fighter and Druid). Outside of core, it's possible to do it while staying on close Tiers... Wild Shape Variant Ranger and Warblade, for example.

Note that a few classes are right on the border line between tiers.  Duskblade is very low in Tier 3, and Hexblade is low in Tier 4.  Fighter is high in Tier 5, and CW Samurai is high in Tier 6 (obviously, since it's pretty much strictly better than the same tier Warrior).

JaronK
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 08:59:20 PM by JaronK » Logged

JaronK
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 4039


« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2009, 02:51:24 AM »

FAQ:

Q:  So, which is the best Tier?

A:  In the end, the best Tier is the Tier that matches the rest of your party and appeals to you.  If your party is Fighter, Rogue, Healer, Barbarian, then Tier 4 or 5 is going to be the best.  If your party is Sorcerer, Beguiler, Crusader, Swordsage, then Tier 2-3 will be best.  Really, if you're having fun and no one in the party feels either useless or overpowered, then you're doing it right.  Personally, I prefer Tier 3, but I still match to whatever party I'm in if I join after other characters are created.

That said, here's something that might help some DMs decide which tier is best for their campaigns:

So, I was thinking about the whole "what is the best Tier" thing.  And of course it varies by campaign, but I'll talk about it a bit.

Tier 1 is the best tier if you want the PCs to be super powered... similar to an Exalted campaign (the RPG, not BoED).  I've heard of one great campaign where the DM made the only character creation rule be that your character had to be evil and be after immortality.  They had a Wizard who turned into a Lich, a Druid who used Reincarnation cheese, and so on.  When they hit level 20 after having totally thrashed the campaign world, the DM ended the campaign and started a new one.  It was 1000 years in the future, and the evil characters were all epic now, and ruling the whole land.  The players had to start over as first level good characters and try to defeat their old PCs.  Neat.  Also, Clerics and Druids can be very nice for newbies because any poor build choices they make early on really won't matter that much later... sure, Weapon Focus Scimitar on the Druid may have been dumb, but you can turn into a Dire Bear so who cares?  And if you picked the wrong spells today, that's okay... pick better ones tomorow.  That said, I only recommend this tier for veteran DMs who can keep the PCs in line in agreeable ways, as campaigns can be broken very quickly by the unpredictable and powerful tools available to the players.  Be aware that house rules or gentleman's agreements will become necessary at this level when the players master their classes, as these classes will become absolutely broken if actually allowed to play by RAW with no limits.

Tier 2... I'm not sure how many people would specifically want this one because it's pretty small, but it does have the advantage of giving you big power spells while still being at least a bit more predictable with your tricks.  Newbies who might be overwhelmed with the number of spells constantly available to Clerics and Druids and Wizards might be more comfortable if they don't have to re choose their spells every day, so it might be best for them.  Note that because the Tier 2 classes have as much raw power as the Tier 1s, they too will require gentleman's agreements, house rules, or simply players who don't go all out to avoid game breakage when the players learn their classes.

Tier 3 is the best tier for me.  Everyone in the party has great tricks and can still throw some big surprises at me when I'm DMing, but everyone else still needs a party to work with them, which makes it easier to make sure specific party members have chances to shine.  I like the versitility of players at this level, and power wise they're still managable without flat out saying "no, you can't do that."  It's possible to do game breaking things with Tier 3s, but that's much less of a danger as you can't really break the game without trying with a Tier 3 class (whereas any Sorcerer who wanted to make a home base and took Genesis might suddenly say "hey wait a minute, this spell can mess with time traits!" and suddenly break the game with little warning).

Tier 4 is best for a lot of people too.  At this Tier you can start predicting what the players will do in a situation, so DMs can better gauge how encounters will go.  That Barbarian is going to deal a lot of damage through charging... if you want a hard encounter, use difficult terrain or whatever, and if you want an easier encounter, make sure he's got a target he can charge.  The more flexible Tier 4s will be less predictable but they won't blow you away with a sudden trick you didn't see coming... that Rogue may have awesome tricks with his UMD, but only with items that you give him.  Plus, teamwork is definitely important at this level.  That Barbarian may be awesome in combat, but when it's time for stealth, he's not going to shine, and someone else will.  As such, this is definitely a nice tier for beginning DMs who want to have solid control over their parties without fully railroading.

Tier 5 is probably best for new DMs, especially when dealing with veteran players.  PCs at this point are getting very predictable.  That Fighter with Improved Trip and a Spiked Chain will trip enemies, the Healer will be a healbot, the Monk can run fast and make a lot of attacks, but generally speaking you know what's going to happen in advance, especially in combat.  This predictability makes it easy for a DM to guide the plot where he wants without it looking like railroading, as the limitations of the classes provide the railroad tracks for you.  If the PCs are supposed to kill a dragon by going in through his cave, that's what they'll do... they're not going to Love's Pain nuke said dragon from miles away and then float ethereally through his lair or something.

Tier 6 is best when what you want is a fun little low powered game.  The PCs are very limited, so challenges should be primarily player-centric in nature, since the classes themselves won't create many good solutions to situations.    Puzzles that the players must solve, fights that are more about organization than damage dealing, and so on.  This tier works very well for veterans who want a challenge and newbies who want more fluff than crunch when playing, as classes don't have many abilities to get confused by (except the Samurai of course).  Really, if you want to play at this low power level, you may be more satisfied playing a game like A|State than D&D, but it's worth doing once in a while.

Q:  Why is my favorite class too low?  It should TOTALLY be much higher!

A:  Remember, you're probably more experienced with your favorite class than with other classes.  Plus, your personality probably fits well with the way that class works, and you probably are better inspired to work with that class.  As such, whatever your favorite class is is going to seem stronger for you than everyone else.  This is because you're simply going to play your favorite class in a more skillfull way... plus you'll be blinded to the shortcomings of that class, since you probably don't care about those anyway (they match with things that you as a player probably don't want to do anyway).  As such, if I did this right most people should think their favorite class is a little too low, whether that class is Fighter or Monk or Rogue or whatever else.  If everybody looks at this system and sees that one or two of their favorite classes are a tier or so too low, but most other stuff looks about right, I consider it a success.

Q:  I totally saw a [Class X] perform far better than a [Class Y] even though you list it as lower.  What gives?

A:  This system assumes that everything other than mechanics is totally equal.  It's a ranking of the mechanical classes themselves, not of the players who use that class.  As long as the players are of equal skill and optimize their characters roughly the same amount, it's fine.  If one player optimizes a whole lot more than the other, that will shift their position on the chart.  Likewise, if one player is more skilled than the other, or campaign situations favor one playstyle over another, classes can shift around.  Remember, this is a rough ranking and a guideline, not a perfect ruler.

Q:  So what a minute, how can I use it then?  My players all play differently.

A:  First, determine what you'd say is the average optimization and skill level in the group, then make adjustments for people who are noticably different from that.  I can't give examples of skill level, but here's an example for optimization.  Imagine for a moment that your party has a Cleric with DMM: Persistant Spell, a Fighter with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack, a Beguiler with a Mindbender dip and Mindsight, and a traditional Sword and Board Fighter.  Now, the first three are pretty optimized, but the fourth is pretty weak.   So in that case, what you've actually got is a Tier 1, a Tier 3, a Tier 5, and a Tier 6, with that second Fighter being Tier 6 because he's far less optimized than the rest of the group.  However, if your group is instead a healbot Cleric, a Beguiler who hasn't figured out how to use illusions effectively, a Sword and Board Fighter, and a Shock Trooper/Leap Attack Fighter, then the charge based Fighter is the odd one out.  Bump him up a Tier... maybe even 2.  So now you've got a Tier 1, a Tier 3, a Tier 5, and maybe a Tier 4.  Remember, this whole thing is about intra party balance... there's no objective balancing, because each campaign is different.

Also, a simple way I've used it is this: in my regular gaming group, I've got one player who optimizes like crazy and likes making characters for other players.  And then I've got a bunch of people who make their own characters, and they're less optimized.  I can therefor tell people that they can be a Tier 4 class if they let him make their characters, or Tier 3 if they make their own.  It's worked out pretty well.

Q:  Why didn't you rank this from best to worst, like Wizard first, Archivist second, and so on?  Why tiers?

A:  There are too many variables in the game to actually rank the classes from best to worst.  If the DM allows the Archivist to just research any spell he wants and is including the Divine Magician and Divine Bard varients in his game, plus the other ways for Archivists to get all Wizard/Sorcerer spells, then the Archivist is clearly stronger than the Wizard.  If not, the Wizard may be stronger than the Archivist.  Factors like that, plus questions of which books are allowed, what the wealth by level is, and what access to magic shops is allowed to the players... these things make it impossible to make a specific ranking of best to worst without assuming a heck of a lot, and I wanted this system to work for the vast majority of games.  As such, I ranked them in tiers of power... regardless of the general campaign, an Archivist and a Wizard will be reasonably close to each other in power, and both will be far stronger than a Monk, for example.  I do still have to make a few basic assumptions, such as that player skill and optimziation are reasonably close and that for the most part RAW is being played, but that's about it.

Also, the purpose of this system isn't to say "X class is the best!"  It's to allow players and DMs to maintain intraparty balance... for that purpose, tiers are specific enough.

Q:  So what exactly is this system measuring?  Raw Power?  Then why is the Barbarian lower than the Duskblade, when the Barbarian clearly does more damage?

A:  The Tier System is not specifically ranking Power or Versitility (though those are what ends up being the big factors). It's ranking the ability of a class to achieve what you want in any given situation. Highly versitile classes will be more likely to efficiently apply what power they have to the situation, while very powerful classes will be able to REALLY help in specific situations. Classes that are both versitile and powerful will very easily get what they want by being very likely to have a very powerful solution to the current problem. This is what matters most for balance.

For example, here's how the various Tiers might deal with a specific set of situations, cut to spoilers due to size:

Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

Okay, so, here we go.

Tier 6: A Commoner. Situation 1: If he's REALLY optimized, he could be a threat to the dragon, but a single attack from the dragon could take him out too. He can't really offer help getting to said dragon. He could fill up the entire cave with chickens, but that's probably not a good idea. Really, he's dead weight unless his build was perfectly optimized for this situation (see my Commoner charger build for an example). Situation 2: Well, without any stealth abilities or diplomacy, he's not too handy here, again unless he's been exactly optimized for this precise thing (such as through Martial Study to get Diplomacy). Really, again his class isn't going to help much here. Situation 3: Again, no help from his class, though the chicken thing might be amusing if you're creative.

Tier 5: A Fighter. Situation 1: If he's optimized for this sort of thing (a tripper might have trouble, though a charger would be handy if he could get off a clear shot, and an archer would likely work) he can be a threat during the main fight, but he's probably just about useless for sneaking down through the cave and avoiding any traps the dragon has set out without alerting said dragon. Most likely the party Rogue would want to hide him in a bag of holding or something. Once in the fight if he's optimized he'll be solid, but if not (if he's a traditional SAB build or a dual weilding monkey grip type) he's going to be a liability in the combat (though not as bad as the Commoner). Situation 2: As the commoner before, his class really won't help here. His class just doesn't provide any useful tools for the job. It's possible (but very unlikely) that he's optimized in a way that helps in this situation, just as with the Commoner. Situation 3: Again, his class doesn't help much, but at least he could be pretty useful during the main battle as a front line trooper of some sort. Hack up the enemy and rack up a body count.

Tier 4: The Rogue. Situation 1: Well he can certainly help get the party to the dragon, even if he's not totally optimized for it. His stealth and detection abilities will come in handy here, and if he puts the less stealthy people in portable holes and the like he's good to go. During the combat he's likely not that helpful (it's hard to sneak attack a dragon) but if he had a lot of prep time he might have been able to snag a scroll or wand of Shivering Touch, in which case he could be extremely helpful... he just has to be really prepared and on the ball, and the resources have to be available in advance. He's quite squishy though, and that dragon is a serious threat. Situation 2: With his stealth and diplomacy, he's all over this. Maybe not 100% perfect, but still pretty darn solid. An individual build might not have all the necessary skills, but most should be able to make do. Situation 3: Perhaps he can use Gather Information and such to gain strategic advantages before the battle... that would be handy. There's a few he's pretty likely to be able to pull off. He might even be able to use Diplomacy to buff the army a bit and at least get them into a good morale situation pre battle. Or, if he's a different set up, he could perhaps go out and assassinate a few of the orc commanders before the fight, which could be handy. And then during the fight he could do the same. It's not incredible, but it's something.

Tier 3: The Beguiler. Situation 1: Again, getting through the cave is easy, perhaps easier with spell support. And again, if he's really prepared in advance, Shivering Touch via UMD is a possibility. But he's also got spells that could be quite useful here depending on the situation, and if he's optimized heavily, this is going to be pretty easy... Shadowcraft Mage, perhaps? Or Earth Dreamer? Either way, he's got a lot of available options, though like the Rogue he's somewhat squishy (and that Dragon won't fall for many illusions with his Blindsense) so he still needs that party support. Situation 2: Again, with his skills he's all over this one, plus the added ability to cast spells like charm makes this one much easier, allowing him to make contacts in the city quickly while he figures out where this guy is. Situation 3: Like the Rogue, he can get strategic advantages and be all over the Diplomacy. He's not quite as good at assassinating people if he takes that route (though sneaking up invisible and then using a coup de gras with a scythe is pretty darn effective), but using illusions during the fight will create some serious chaos in his favor. A single illusion of a wall of fire can really disrupt enemy formations, for example.

Tier 2: The Sorcerer. Situation 1: It really depends on the Sorcerer's spell load out. If he's got Greater Floating Disk, Spectral Hand, and Shivering Touch, this one's going to be easy as pie, since he can just float down (and carry his party in the process) to avoid many traps, then nail the dragon in one shot from a distance. If he doesn't he'd need scrolls with the same issues that the UMD Rogue and Beguiler would need. If he's got Explosive Runes he could create a bomb that would take out the Dragon in one shot. If he's got Polymorph he could turn the party melee into a Hydra for extra damage. If he's got Alter Self he could turn himself into a Skulk to get down there sneakily. Certainly, it's possible that the Sorcerer could own this scenario... if he has the right spells known. That's always the hard part for a Sorcerer. Situation 2: Again, depends on the spell. Does he have divinations that will help him know who's part of the resistance and who's actually an evil spy for the Tyranical Govenerment? Does he have charm? Alter Self would help a ton here too for disguise purposes if he has it. Once again, the options exist that could totally make this easy, but he might not have those options. Runestaffs would help a bit, but not that much. Scrolls would help too, but that requires access to them and good long term preparation. Situation 3: Again, does he have Wall of Iron or Wall of Stone to make fortifications? Does he have Wall of Fire to disrupt the battlefield? How about Mind Rape and Love's Pain to kill off the enemy commanders without any ability to stop him? Does he have Blinding Glory on his spell list, or Shapechange, or Gate? Well, maybe. He's got the power, but if his spells known don't apply here he can't do much. So, maybe he dominates this one, maybe not.

Tier 1: The Wizard. Situation 1: Memorize Greater Floating Disk, Shivering Touch, and Spectral Hand. Maybe Alter Self too for stealth reasons. Kill dragon. Memorize Animate Dead too, because Dragons make great minions (seriously, there's special rules for using that spell on dragons). Sweet, you have a new horsie! Or, you know, maybe you Mind Rape/Love's Pain and kill the dragon before he even knows you exist, then float down and check it out. Or maybe you create a horde of the dead and send them in, triggering the traps with their bodies. Or do the haunt shift trick and waltz in with a hardness of around 80 and giggle. Perhaps you cast Genesis to create a flowing time plane and then sit and think about what to do for a year while only a day passes on the outside... and cast Explosive Runes every day during that year. I'm sure you can come up with something. It's really your call. Situation 2: Check your spell list. Alter Self and Disguise Self can make you look like whoever you need to look like. Locate Creature has obvious utility. Heck, Contact Other Plane could be a total cheating method of finding the guy you're trying to find. Clairvoyance is also handy. It's all there. Situation 3: Oh no, enemy army! Well, if you've optimized for it, there's always the locate city bomb (just be careful not to blow up the friendly guys too). But if not, Love's Pain could assassinate the leaders. Wall of Iron/Stone could create fortifications, or be combined with Fabricate to armour up some of the troops. Or you could just cast Blinding Glory and now the entire enemy army is blind with no save for caster level hours. Maybe you could Planar Bind an appropriate outsider to help train the troops before the battle. Push comes to shove, Gate in a Solar, who can cast Miracle (which actually does have a "I win the battle" option)... or just Shapechange into one, if you prefer.

So yeah, as you move up the Tiers you go from weak, unadaptable, and predictable (that Commoner's got very few useful options) to strong, adaptable, and unpredictable (who knows what that Wizard is going to do?). A Wizard can always apply a great deal of strength very efficiently, whether it's Shivering Touch on the Dragon or Blinding Glory on an enemy army. The Sorcerer has the power, but he may not have power that he can actually apply to the situation. The Beguiler has even less raw power and may have to use UMD to pull it off. The Rogue is even further along that line. And the Fighter has power in very specific areas which are less likely to be useful in a given situation.

That's really what the Tiers are about. How much does this class enable you to achieve what you want in a given situation? The more versitile your power, the more likely that the answer to that question is "a lot." If you've got tons of power and limited versitility (that's you, Sorcerers and charging Barbarians) then sometimes the answer is a lot, but sometimes it's not much. If you've got tons of versitility but limited power (hi, Rogue!) then it's often "a decent amount." If you've got little of both (Commoner!) then yeah, it's often "it doesn't."

And of course reversing that and applying it to DMs, you get "how many effective options does this class give for solving whatever encounters I throw at them?" For Commoners, the answer may be none. For Fighters, it's sometimes none, sometimes 1, maybe 2, but you generally know in advance what it will be (if he's got Improved Trip and a Spiked Chain and all that, he's probably going to be tripping stuff, just a hint). For Wizards, it's tons, and they're all really potent, and you have no idea how he's going to do it. Does he blind the enemy army or assassinate all its leaders or turn into a Solar and just arbitrarily win the battle? There's no way to know until he memorizes his spells for the day (and even then you might not see it coming).

Q:  But what about dips?  I mean, I rarely see anyone playing single class characters.  What would a Barbarian 1/Fighter 6 be, for example?

A:  It's pretty simple.  This system is paying attention to the fact that people are more likely to take the early levels of a class than the later levels, either because they simply don't get to a level where they'd see the late levels, or because of dipping.  Generally speaking, a mix of classes should end up being as high up as the most powerful class in the mix if it's optimized, or somewhere in the middle of the classes used if not very optimized, and below them both if it's really strangely done.  A Barbarian 1/Fighter 6 that's optimized would thus be Tier 4 generally, because it took the best qualities of a Barbarian (probably pounce, rage, and so on) and then made it stronger.  Generally, you don't multiclass out unless you get something better by doing so, so you're usually going to end up at least as strong as the strongest class.  This isn't always true, but it generally is.  Meanwhile, if you do something silly like Wizard 4/Sorcerer 4, you might end up much lower.  But assuming you're not doing anything rediculous, a combination of Tier 4 and Tier 5 classes will usually be Tier 4, though it might be Tier 5.  Similar examples would be that a Scout/Ranger is probably going to be Tier 4 (though because there's a multiclassing feat for that, it could end up Tier 3), a Monk 1/Druid X will be Tier 1, a Fighter 2/Warblade X will be Tier 3, and so on.

Q:  My players want to play classes of wildly different Tiers.  What can I do about this?

A:  Well, this will be a test of your DMing skill.  The easiest solution is to convince them to play classes that are similar conceptually but different in power.  For example, if they're currently going with Paladin, Druid, Monk, Illusionsist, then maybe you can get them to try out Crusader, Wild Shape Varient Ranger, Unarmed Varient Swordsage, Beguiler.  That would make your life a lot easier.  But if they're attached to their classes or feel that their class choice bests fits their character, then you've got a few options.  One is to see the house rule section above and try something like that.  Another is to simply provide extra support for the weaker classes... for example, perhaps more random magic items that drop are useful for unarmed strikers, while Wildling Clasps just don't seem to exist in your game.  Maybe allowing more oddball "broken" tricks for the Monk (and perhaps Paladin) while being much more strict with the Illusionist and Druid.  You can also allow more PrC options for the weaker guys... Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Unarmed Swordsage 4/Master of Nine 5 is fine for that Monk, but Illusionist 10/Earth Dreamer 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5 is not acceptable, and Druid/Planar Shepard is right out.   You can also make sure that the challenges being put forward suit the strengths of the weaker classes.  Something that makes good use of the Monk and Paladin's diplomacy would be advisable, for example.  A challenge where being able to run really fast is handy might work too.  And finally, you can bring the Druid and Illusionist aside and tell them the answer to the next question.

Q:  My party mates all want to play classes of wildly different Tiers.  What can I do about this?

A:  First... see if you can get them to play something closer together, as above.  If that won't work, okay.  Now, if the class you're playing is noticeably stronger than everyone else, try focusing your energy on buffing your party mates.  Channel your power through them... it helps.  If you're a DMM Cleric in a party with a Monk and Fighter, try persisting Recitation, Lesser Vigor, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful instead of Righteous Might, Divine Power, and Divine Favor.  You're still very powerful, and definitely getting results, but since you use your party mates to get those results, they feel useful too.  Also, let them shine in their areas.  If they're melees and you're a Cleric, don't turn into Godzilla and smash Tokyo.  It's not polite.  Focus on the other areas a bit more.  If one of them is playing a Rogue, using Divine Insight to beat him on skills isn't nice.  Let him have his fun, and save your spells for other areas if you can.  If, however, you're playing a weaker class, then optimize optimize optimize!  A CW Samurai is going to have a lot of trouble in a party full of Tier 3s and up, so maybe try being a Necropolitan CW Samurai 10/Zhentarium Fighter 10 with Imperious Command, Eviscerator, Improved Critical, and a pair of Lifedrinker Kukris.  Carve out a niche where you're the king... they can have everything else.  Also, make sure you've got something to do when you do have to sit out.  Give your character a drinking habit or something.

Q:  Why does it matter if a class has broken abilities?  Won't a DM just nerf that anyway?  Shouldn't you just ignore broken abilities when ranking classes?

A:  It actually matters a great deal if a class has broken abilities (such as flowing time Genesis, Planar Binding Wish loops, and so on).  This system is designed to help DMs and players know what kind of power is coming their way, and if a DM is blindsided by something broken that's a serious problem.  I'm not going to tell someone that a Sorcerer is weak because I'm assuming their best spells are all nerfed... I'd rather warn them that Sorcerers have overpowered abilities, so that they look more closely at the character sheets of Sorcerers that are playing in their game and watch out for such stuff.  Remember, not everyone has the same opinion of "broken" and nothing ticks a player off more than having a DM tell them their neat trick that they were counting on is overpowered and suddenly banned.  Ever seen a Sorcerer who took Shivering Touch and Spectral Hand and has been holding those in reserve for a few levels suddenly use those on a Dragon, only to have the DM suddenly say "no, that's broken, you can't use those spells?"  It's not a pretty sight, and I'd like to avoid that.

So again, this is a system that ranks classes before such nerfing.  Tier 1 and 2 class can easily do game breaking things, and DMing for those classes does require checking to make sure the player won't do anything silly (with good players, this is a simple matter of asking them to use their judgement.  With munchkins, you have to be firm).  The fact that they're Tier 1 and 2 is supposed to warn you that some house ruling may be necessary to avoid broken campaigns if your players go a little nuts.

Q: What assumptions were used in making this system?

A:  I tried to use as few assumptions as possible, to ensure the system would apply to as many games as possible.  However, I had to use a few.  The primary assumptions are equivalent player skill and equivalent optimization level.  If one class is heavily optimized (taking the best available options, whatever best might mean in this case) and another example of the same class is not very optimized at all (taking a bunch of random options without regards to power) then obviously the same class would have two very different power/versitility levels.  Likewise, an incompetent player (or one who's simply not trying) will do far less with a powerful class than someone who's creative and knows the rules well.  I simply can't measure those factors, so the system assumes it's the same.

As far as books available, I assume that the core books are available, as well as whatever book the class appears in.  Obviously, few people play a Dread Necromancer without Heroes of Horror.  For all other sources, I tried to count them based on how commonly used I thought they were.  For example, the Complete series of books are very often used, so I factored in the Barbarian's access to the Lion Totem with the assumption that it would usually be available.  However, 3.0 books like Book of Exalted Deeds are far less likely to be used, so I didn't really factor in the Healer's ability to cast Consecrated Spells out of that book much when ranking that class.  Usually this doesn't actually matter all that much (a Core Wizard is to a Core Rogue as an all books Wizard is to all all books Rogue), but for some classes it matters a great deal... these classes are listed separately (such as the Binder, which gains a TON of power with access to the online official WotC material, and is thus listed at both Tier 2 and Tier 3).

« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 10:42:58 PM by JaronK » Logged

JaronK
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 4039


« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2009, 02:52:23 AM »

House Rules

The first time I posted this I was asked about potential house rules that might help balance out the Tiers a bit more.  This post will be on that topic.  First, some quick and dirty house rules that are easy to implement:

Option #1: Point Buy modifications. This is a quick and dirty fix that helps a bit. It's not perfect, but it's certainly something. Tier 1s get 24 point buy. Tier 2s get 28 point buy. Tier 3s get 32 point buy. Tier 4s get 36 point buy. Tier 5s get 40 point buy. Tier 6s get 44 point buy. Result? At low levels, their Tiers are nearly reversed, with CW Samurai having awesome stats while Wizards really are weak bookish types. By the high levels, the Tiers are back in order, but the difference is less pronounced through the mid levels. Obviously, you can adjust what the differences are, but this works pretty well, and most importantly it's extremely easy. The big downside is that you really can't allow much multiclassing or else it all goes out of whack. Other similar methods include rolling but letting lower Tiers get extra rerolls or bonuses after the roll, and giving free LA points to low tier classes (so, everyone Tier 3 and below gets 1 free LA, and everyone Tier 5 and below gets 2 free LA).

Option #2: Partial Gestalt. Tier 1s and 2s are normal. Tier 3s and 4s may gestalt their levels with an NPC class of their choice (Adept, Expert, Commoner, or Warrior). Tier 5s and 6s may gestalt their levels with any other Tier 5 or 6 class of their choice, or Adepts. Result? Again, a healthy power boost for the low Tiers. Suddenly the Rogues can have full BAB and lots of hitpoints, and the Monks can have Fighter powers too. Very handy. Plus, multiclassing works... it's just that if you start as a Fighter//Monk and want to take a level of, say, Ranger, that level must have an NPC class on the other side. If for some reason you wanted Sorcerer, you wouldn't be gestalt at all in that level. Lord knows Fighters get a lot better when they can be Fighter//Monks or Fighter//CA Ninjas or whatever.

Option #3: Mass bannings. Clunky method, but simply saying "no, you can't be Tier X and above" does work. You pick the level that you want to deal with (let's say Tier 3, because that's my favorite) and then ban the ones higher than that (no Tier 2 or Tier 1). Some would ban the levels below that too (say, no Tier 5s or 6s) but I actually find that unnessesary... sometimes those weaker classes might work for your build as a dip. Honestly, I don't favor this method, because sometimes players can't find a class that fits their concept just right this way, but it is an option.

Option #4:  Targetting nerfs.  Go through and find all the stuff you'd consider overpowered and remove or weaken each thing.  This takes a LOT of work and requires knowing the initial balance point of each class (something the Tiers were designed to help with).  For example, you could remove the Polymorph line entirely, disallow the use of planar traits with Genesis, remove Planar Binding, and so on.  This method takes a heck of a lot of work and is easy to do incorrectly (and thus create even more balance issues) so make sure you know how strong each thing is before you start doing it.  For one example of a person's attempt to do this, see here:  http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3288.0

And then, here's a much more convoluted bit of house rules, as an example of how you can personalize your campaign while taking into account relative class power.

In my game, I wanted a low magic game, with characters using skills and martial abilities to solve problems instead of spells.  So, I did the following:

Psionics don't exist (not familiar enough with them)

When preparing a spell (or preparing a spell slot, which spontaneous casters must do), you must take 1 hour per level of the spell. At the end, the DM makes a hidden DC 10*spell level check, where any D20 roll equal to or less than the level of the spell is an automatic failure. The skill for the check is Knowledge Nature for nature casters (Druids, Rangers, etc), Knowledge Religeon for divine casters (Clerics, Paladins, etc), and Spellcraft for arcane casters (Wizards, Bards, etc). When you try to cast the spell, if you've succeeded on the check it goes off normally. If you fail, the spell fails and you take a backlash effect, randomly chosen depending on the school of the spell you tried to cast (so failed necromancy spells do things like cause permanent wisdom decreases and negative energy damage, failed conjurations summon powerful things that attack you or teleport you into physical objects, etc). The save DC against backlash effects, if there's a save at all, is 5*spell level. Every time you cast a spell there's a chance of dying. As such, spellcasters are HEAVILY nerfed, and not expected to be played. When creating magic items, the spells required must be cast every day... so bad idea!

No humanoids or monsterous humanoids (which includes all PCs) can use Spell Like abilities, except for those granted by the Binder and Warlock classes (since those classes draw their power from outside sources).

The game is Gestalt.

All players get the benefits of Vow of Poverty, plus the bonus feats from that are any bonus feat you want (not just exalted), without the drawbacks (you can still use gear). However, there are no useful magic items in the game, so it's all mundane gear. As such, gear is far less important in my game... any random sword works as well as any other, so you can lose all your stuff, punch out a guard, steal his sword, and rock out.

All players heal rapidly when out of sight and no one's after them (fast healing equal to your HD, only when I as the DM decide you're between encounters).

Classes that had casting can, with DM permission, swap out their casting for any one other class substitution ability... for example, the Bard can swap casting for an Animal Companion because of the UA Fey Varient Bard.

Basically, it's a low magic heroic fantasy game. And remember, I like Tier 3 as a balance point. So what do these house rules do to balance?

Well, Tier 1 and 2 are completely gone. All of them depend on spellcasting which is now nerfed, so most of those classes drop to Tier 5-6 (except the Druid, who's Tier 3... yeah, Wild Shape is that powerful). The top tier classes are now the normal Tier 3 guys plus the Druid, except that the Beguiler drops to around Tier 5/6 and the Dread Necromancer does too. Sadly, the Healer and Warmage are also nerfed, but they didn't fit in the campaign world anyway.

The gear changes mean certain specialized equipment dependent builds don't work (Warblade Crossbow archers, for example), and Wild Shape based classes get pumped up (Druids and Wild Shape Rangers) but otherwise changes are minimal as far as balance is concerned.

Healing classes are basically unnecessary, though still handy, so Crusaders are useful to have.

Warlock and Binder invisibility powers are awesome against other humanoids.

Overall, that's about the effect I wanted. The entire party can optimize like crazy and they're still maxing out at Tier 2 if they really work at it, and are usually Tier 3 otherwise.

The current party at this time (we just added two players) is I believe:

Warblade//Swordsage, Barbarian//Swordsage, Factotum//Bard (with a gecko familiar), Binder//Ninja/Rogue, Scout//Warlock.

Conveniently enough, all of them are basically Tier 2-3 (gestalt raises them up a bit).

JaronK
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 06:37:08 PM by JaronK » Logged

JaronK
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 4039


« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2009, 02:53:15 AM »

Why Each Class is in its Tier

Hopefully I'll eventually expand this post, but for now I can at least link this resource:  http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5070.0

Additionally, here's a write up on the Factotum. 
Here's how combat went the first time a friend of mine picked up a Factotum (never having played before). He was just released from being captured (plot point to get him into the game) and thus had absolutely no gear at all, just the mundane clothes on his back. If he was anything like a Rogue, he should have been unable to fight, but he was thrown directly into combat, and here's what he did, and note that this is an 8th level Tiefling Factotum:

First, he made a rediculously high Escape Artist check to get out of his bindings (he was supposed to be just waiting for us to rescue him). Then he sneaks down the hall. Coming around the corner, he saw a bad guy right in front of him at the opening to a courtyard where the rest of the party was battling. So, on his initiative (it was an ongoing battle) he gets a free standard action with his Factotum abilities and Alter Selfs into an Advespa, which he had learned about with a quick google search for "Alter Self Forms." This gives him 5 natural attacks, 7 Natural Armour, and a flight speed. Then he full attacks the bad guy in front of him, getting a little sneak attack in for good measure. Next round, as our party is cleaning up pretty good and the Sorcereress just glitterdusted the guy and an enemy near him, the guy ran, getting away around a corner... but the Factotum just used an extra standard action to get to the corner, then charged him and used sneak attack to finish him off.

Now, this is simply not something a naked Rogue does.

Now, you can call an 8th level character using Alter Self to gain natural AC and natural attacks TO, but since it was used in game, it's clearly not, nor is it even overpowered (it's still light duty Wild Shape). Yes, Wizards using Alter Self at level 3 to get +8 Natural AC for 30 minutes is overpowered. But Factotums can't do that sort of thing until 5, at which point the Druid already has Wild Shape, which is an equivalent ability at level 5 and continues to get far better, outpacing Alter Self dramatically as the levels increase

Meanwhile, there's the old Iajuitsu Focus thing. Yes, OA was updated for 3.5, and yes, Factotums have ALL skills as class skills, including Autohypnosis and IF. The ability to take extra standard actions and, when you need, add your Factotum level to your check once in a while makes this incredibly potent. You can draw a weapon (usually with the eager enchantment if you can get it, since generally speaking Factotums have a better place to spend feats) in the surprise round (gained through hiding, or casting invisibility, or whatever), partial action charge the enemy, and deal IF damage. Then, if you want, use an extra standard action to hit them again. Then, if you win initiative, use an extra standard action to sheath your weapon while you move up to another enemy, then draw it and full attack, dealing IF damage a second time (and if you want to add sneak attack damage, you could do that too). I don't know why some people don't think IF should count... that's exactly what the Factotum's forte is (using any skill he wants). And of course an item that gives Sapphire Nightmare Blade is exceptionally cheap.

And then of course there's the spellcasting. While he has few spells per day and they're way behind a Wizard, he's got four big advantages here.

First and formost, he can gain extra standard actions, and can do it a LOT if he takes the Factotum only feat that, well, he almost certainly will take. Saying that feat doesn't count because it's in a weird place is silly, since the Factotum itself is in a weird place so you're already looking through weird places, and the "weird place" is the Class Chronicals about Factotums anyway. That's not hugely weird. The result is that he can combo spells together, which can be extremely useful.

The second advantage Factotums get with spells is that unlike Wizards, they can use the entire list without needing a spellbook. That means that if a Factotum suddenly realizes he needs spell X, that's exactly what he's going to have ready for the next day... plus he doesn't have to spend tons of his wealth by level on a spellbook. This is huge in games like World's Largest Dungeon, or just games where the situation changes a lot.

And the third is that his spells are actually spell like abilities, meaning they always have a standard action casting time. He does have to pay component costs and can't use exp cost spells, but the standard action thing is VERY good with some spells, for example Major Creation or any other spell balanced by its slow casting time.

And fourth, he can ignore SR whenever he wants, starting from level 11. Just think about that one for a second.  Consider how many spells are balanced by the fact that at least SR can stop them, and then realize that when a Factotum does it, he can ignore that.  Cast Spectral Hand and Shivering Touch in the surprise round, touch attack the dragon with it, and ignore his SR for the purpose, which would be his only defense?  Sure.  And you've even got the Factotum's advantages in sneaking up on him, just stay out of the range of his Blindsense (unless you have Darkstalker of course).

So, another way a Factotum could fight (we've been through two already, turning into a powerful combat form and using Iajuitsu Focus for damage boosting) would be to combo useful spells together. One easy example is Cloudkill with Solid Fog, making a fog of death that enemies can't escape from quickly enough. And remember, you can cast the whole combo in the surprise round if you want. Very nasty. You could even cast Animate Dead in the middle of a battle if you so desired, due to the casting time decrease. No one ever expects the skillmonkey to pull that move off.  And the above mentioned combination of Spectral Hand with any potent touch attack.  All this and the ability to ignore SR whenever it suits you is pretty darn incredible.

The important point is that everything I've stated here is just a Factotum with a few Fonts of Inspiration. That's it. I haven't discussed gear other than the side note about using Sapphire Nightmare Blade, or race (though the Advespi thing only works if you're an outsider... that particular character happens to be a Tiefling... but you can use other forms if you're another race). And those were just some examples of what a Factotum can do (I haven't even gone into Turn Undead or his healing abilties or his ability to ignore DR, or his ability to eventually mimic any three Ex class abilities from 15th level characters... how about 10d6 sneak attack, 10d6 sudden strike, and full flurry of blows? Or would you prefer Pounce? You know what else is Ex? A Fighter's Bonus Feats, and you probably just gained 10 of them because you just gained the bonus feats ability of a fighter of your Factotum level. Now, technically spellcasting itself is Ex, but we'll ignore that for now). I haven't gone into his defense either... the ability to simply ignore any damage that would take him to 0 or less hitpoints for 4 Inspiration Points is pretty freaking awesome, as as Int to AC in any armour if he needs it (though his later version of the ability requires light armour). And who doesn't like the ability to add your class level to any save when you want it?

And of course, all of that was just combat. We haven't even gotten started on out of combat.

Out of combat you're much like a Rogue, except that unlike a Rogue you can pump Int without worrying (Rogues have to care about their Dex a lot more if they want to survive, and their poorer defense makes Con that much more critical). This means your higher int will make up for the skill point difference. Then you've got both Int and Dex (and both Int and Str) to skills that require Str or Dex, the ability to add your Factotum level once per day to any skill you've got a point in already, and of course the ability to cast nearly any Wizard/Sorc spell, though admittedly a few spell levels behind the big boys. This can mean scouting an area while Alter Selfed into a Whispergnome or Skulk for better hide and move silently, using Autohypnosis to automatically memorize every detail you see, and then sneaking back. Or just using a divination spell. You've got such spells as Knock and Silence to help out too. And that's just the scouting aspect.  Plus, while Rogues are constantly hoping to find useful gear to use with UMD, Factotums can actually do item crafting on their own if they want.

There's a reason Factotums are in Tier 3 in my system, and in fact they're pretty high in Tier 3. They've got so much innate flexibility it's obscene... unexperienced DMs thinking they're weaker could get VERY surprised but how much a Factotum can alter himself to suit a situation perfectly.  Put a Factotum in a group with a Rogue and that Rogue ends up looking like dead weight plenty of the time (any time where the situation calls for one skill monkey to do something). And the Fighter? The Factotum can often outclass him too, sometimes dropping whole encounters in the surprise round and start of the first round. And he can do all of it without warning, adapting on the fly to the situation in front of him.  Certainly, when I watch the one that's currently grouped with my Dread Necromancer (plus a Sorcerer, Cleric, Swordsage, and Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade) there's no way he's the weak link.

So yeah, really potent, really flexible class that can REALLY surprise a DM.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 09:53:22 PM by JaronK » Logged

Kaelik
Donkey Kong
****
Posts: 704


Email
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2009, 02:59:43 AM »

You could have at least changed Psionic Warrior (IE not a D&D class) to Psychic Warrior (an actual D&D class) if you are going to repost the whole thing.
Logged
bogsnes
Donkey Kong
****
Posts: 601


Email
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2009, 05:06:29 PM »

As I've asked before: what "cast today, benefit tomorrow" does the sorcerer have (or all casters actually, curious about the Druid and Cleric too)?
Logged
Growin
Ring-Tailed Lemur
**
Posts: 34


« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2009, 05:28:49 PM »

Dragon Shaman's should clearly be Tier 4.  Basically they are a heal bot that allows a party to almost always have half their hit points.  Eventually it gets a breath weapon... Medium BAB, some lame abilities.  About the only useful thing is that you can quickly go into the chameleon prestige class if you pick the right dragon totem.
Logged
Tshern
Clown Prince of Crime
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 5726


Aistii valoa auttavasti

miikamartemo@hotmail.com
Email
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2009, 05:47:07 PM »

Mediocre out of combat healing isn't really a good excuse at all.
Logged

Ja vuosia myöhemmin
kalvas kaksikko lattialla motellin tihrustelee,
kun sama keiju katossa leijailee.
Kyselevät: "Mikä päivä nyt on?
Tiedätkö sen?"
Kuiskaten laulaa keiju:
"Tämän elämän viimeinen."

Handy Links
Kaelik
Donkey Kong
****
Posts: 704


Email
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2009, 05:47:39 PM »

As I've asked before: what "cast today, benefit tomorrow" does the sorcerer have (or all casters actually, curious about the Druid and Cleric too)?

Well there are two things.

1) if you happen to be a bullshit good character using Exalted Deeds, you can totally use shit to summon a unicorn, but no one cares. That's for Druids. Alternatively, if you are a Cleric/Wizard you can use Animate Dead to make giant awesome bitches. Or dominate person to get minions, or whatever else you want.

2) All casters can do the Frank Cheat, but Wizards are the best at it.

It's where you don't adventure for a day, and you prepare a bunch of Hour per level and 24 hour buffs extended. Then you cast them all rest for 8 hours, then re prepare spells that are all shorter buffs or attack buffs. So you have a crap ton of buffs going that don't cost spells.

My level 20 Druid has 38 hours left on his Energy Immunity (everything) and Superior Resistance buffs, and even longer on his Heart of Air/Fire/Water/Earth and Unicorn Blood and other such crap. (Elemental Body is good, but I think Wizard only).

3) You can also build up 600d6 damage bombs if you are a dick, and this is the one JaronK cares about the most.
Logged
PhaedrusXY
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 8022


Advanced Spambot


« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2009, 05:50:10 PM »

3) You can also build up 600d6 damage bombs if you are a dick, and this is the one JaronK cares about the most.
Laugh  Laugh Laugh Laugh
Logged

A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
The_Mad_Linguist
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 8780


Simulated Thing


« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2009, 08:28:13 PM »

Make a few big banners with illusory script.  It's got a 1 minute casting time, but lasts for 1 day/level.

Things like: "Nothing to see here", "doin' fine", "just peachy", or "Get in the box"
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 08:38:29 PM by The_Mad_Linguist » Logged

Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.
JaronK
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 4039


« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2009, 10:07:41 PM »

As I've asked before: what "cast today, benefit tomorrow" does the sorcerer have (or all casters actually, curious about the Druid and Cleric too)?

Any minion creation spell (Animate Dead/Planar Binding/Plague of Undead), construction spells (Wall of Stone, Fabricate, Wall of Iron, Magecraft, Shape Earth, Hardness), magic trap spells (Explosive Runes, various glyphs), and so on.  There's really a ton of them available if you look for them.  Conveniently, the Runestaff of the Artisan and Runestaff of the Architect have most of what you'd want for building a fortification, while the Runestaff of the Undying helps out a bit with minion creation.  Wizards are obviously better than Sorcerers at this, though Mage of the Arcane Order means Sorcerers can compete if they want to.  Planar Binding gets a special note because it can be used not just to get a minion but also to get various other long term benefits.  Even if you're not doing silly Efreeti tricks, Genies can do permanent Major Creation (restricted types though) if you happen to want a nice Soarwood tower or something.  And don't forget the obvious Permenency!  Permanent Enlarge Person is always appreciated on trippers and the like.

For Clerics, offhand I can think of Divine Insight when used with mundane crafting (something I've personally used alot) and there's some really nice long term minion spells in BoED.  Also of course Animate Dead is lower level on the Cleric list, and Clerics have a bunch of other similar undead minion spells (Black Sand is a big help there!).  Plus there are domains for construction if you want to specialize in it.  Druids have spells like Beget Bogun and whatnot. 

If you look around, there's really a ton of spells in a variety of books that are great for using up otherwise unused slots in ways that provide some kind of long term bonus.  It's most common to have a way of building something or making minions, but there are other options too.  Because so many books added to the Tier 1 casters' lists, if you hunt around there's something for everyone (though there's also plenty in core, at least for the arcanists).  The Dread Necromancer obviously also has plenty of minion creation spells, though that class lacks any other kind of benefit tomorrow spells (Ghoul Glyph is an exception if you use Advanced Learning on it).  The Beguiler really doesn't get any (except they can get Illusory Wall and Permanent Image if they want, which is nice for decorating in artistic ways!), and nor does the Warmage or Healer (though I think the Healer might get a few in BoED with Sacred Spells... not sure though).  Obviously any arcane caster can use Arcane Disciple to get a few though.

I tend to mention Explosive Runes, by the way, simply because explosive bombs amuses me a great deal and it fits my playstyle... not because it's actually the most useful thing out there.  I don't usually do 600d6 damage with them though.  6d6 force damage is quite handy.

JaronK
Logged

Kaelik
Donkey Kong
****
Posts: 704


Email
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2009, 11:15:37 PM »

Can you please please please stop sucking off magecraft? It give s +5 to a skill check. No one actually cares. There are level 2 Wizard spells that give much higher bonuses.
Logged
dark_samuari
Hong Kong
****
Posts: 1024


Email
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2009, 11:17:18 PM »

Can you please please please stop sucking off magecraft? It gives +5 to a skill check. No one actually cares. There are level 2 Wizard spells that give much higher bonuses.

Alright than we use those ones.
Logged
JaronK
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 4039


« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2009, 11:32:00 PM »

Can you please please please stop sucking off magecraft? It give s +5 to a skill check. No one actually cares. There are level 2 Wizard spells that give much higher bonuses.

You whine when I don't mention really low level spells that I'm only talking about level 13+ (even when I'm talking about third level spells).  When I mention one of the good level 1 spells, you whine that the higher level spells are better.  Yeesh.  It's not like there's that many good level 1 spells, especially as you level up.  Once colorspray becomes worthless around level 5, you're pretty much left with Nerveskitter, Grease, PW: Pain and Magecraft as actually helpful first level spells.  Maybe Disguise Self and Endure Elements.  Point being, it's a solid spell, and it's the only spell I could think of that's level 1 and fits the topic of "what spells can be cast today that can benefit me tomorrow?"

The fact that it's level 1 is what helps a lot... if a Sorcerer is starting at level 1-3, or a Wizard at 1-2, then the ability to craft their own mundane gear using that spell, and thus get it 1/3 off, is quite handy (every DM I've worked with has been fine with letting you craft your own gear if you have the skills to succeed every time and tools).  It's nothing huge, but it helps.  It's better for a Wizard... an Int 16 Wizard with Masterwork Tools and Magecraft can craft Masterwork items by taking 10.  A Sorcerer is unlikely to have enough Int to do that, but they can throw in two or three ranks for it if they want.  Note the less, it's a spell that gives you long term bonuses (cheaper mundane gear) for the cost of totally renewable resources (time and spell slots).

But yes, higher level spells are better than lower level ones, and you can use the higher level spells to get better bonuses.  What's your point there? 

JaronK
Logged

Kaelik
Donkey Kong
****
Posts: 704


Email
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2009, 11:37:01 PM »

No, I'm making fun of you because you bring up fucking Magecraft in every thread ever because it adds a +5 to a skill check. No one cares about +5 to a skill check. A Wizard can just fucking craft that shit without Magecraft too, but no one actually cares enough to brag about it.
Logged
SorO_Lost
Man in Gorilla Suit
*****
Posts: 2355


I'll kill you before you're born.


« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2009, 12:06:32 AM »

What is the tier system's stance on UMD?

1. A Rogue has UMD as a class skill, does this have any impact on it's ranking compared to a class without UMD?
2. What if the class compared to gets either arcane or divine spell whereas a different class is using both via UMD as a class skill?
3. A Healer takes UMD to use a runestaff loaded with Cleric spells, does that mean he just moved up a teir?

I think UMD should be flat out ignored for two reasons.
1. Any nerdy caster UMDing to cast Divine Power becomes a tank in their own right and any nonspellcaster can pretend to cast spells. Given that everyone can use UMD to pretend their someone else everything balances it's self out in the long run.
2. UMD is all about not being you. If your pretending to be someone else to get a job done then obviously you're not good enough. UMD should not be the reason to justify the class as being useful, instead it's own abilities and capabilities should be judged.
Logged

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
dark_samuari
Hong Kong
****
Posts: 1024


Email
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2009, 12:12:24 AM »

I think UMD should be flat out ignored for two reasons.
1. Any nerdy caster UMDing to cast Divine Power becomes a tank in their own right and any nonspellcaster can pretend to cast spells. Given that everyone can use UMD to pretend their someone else everything balances it's self out in the long run.
2. UMD is all about not being you. If your pretending to be someone else to get a job done then obviously you're not good enough. UMD should not be the reason to justify the class as being useful, instead it's own abilities and capabilities should be judged.

I think it can't carrying a class but it certainly does add a viable strength to it.

For example maybe a rogue without UMD would resemble this:


And a rogue with UMD would reseble this:
Logged
The_Mad_Linguist
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 8780


Simulated Thing


« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2009, 12:16:30 AM »

It can't carry a class, but having it as a class skill is better than not having it as a class skill.
Logged

Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.
JaronK
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 4039


« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2009, 09:20:26 PM »

What is the tier system's stance on UMD?

1. A Rogue has UMD as a class skill, does this have any impact on it's ranking compared to a class without UMD?

Yes, it's factored in, but I consider very carefully the issues with it (namely, the DM has to actually give you access to items worth using it with).  Notice that all skillmonkeys above the Rogue also have UMD (Factotums, Beguilers).  The Ninja is below the Rogue and lacks it.  As such, most of the stronger skillmonkey classes have UMD already, even without considering UMD itself.  UMD is a potentially potent ability, but because it requires the DM to give you what you need to use it, it's less of a balance issue.  After all, every class is powerful if it gets just the right magic items, but if you can't craft your own, that doesn't matter too much.  UMD is a very campaign specific skill... in some campaigns it's awesome, in others it's worthless, in most it's somewhere in between, and that mostly has to do with the prevalence of magic marts in your area.  If you can just go buy a Wand of Knock to deal with Arcane Locks and a Wand of Lesser Vigor to help with healing, that's quite handy.  It's very rare that you could just go get a Wand of Shivering Touch or something though.

Quote
2. What if the class compared to gets either arcane or divine spell whereas a different class is using both via UMD as a class skill?

That mostly only matters in terms of item creation.  The ability to make stuff that you'd want to use UMD with (which mostly matters for Factotums, Warlocks, and Artificers) is very powerful, and is factored in.  But if you have the ability to UMD arcane spells while having divine spells, you frankly could have UMDed the divine spells anyway since it's the same DCs.

Quote
3. A Healer takes UMD to use a runestaff loaded with Cleric spells, does that mean he just moved up a teir?

It means he cheated.  Runestaffs are arcane only!  No Cleric spells for you!  Also, UMD when used cross class is available to all classes, and as such is not factored in at all (that would be a Class X fallacy if I counted it).

Quote
I think UMD should be flat out ignored for two reasons.
1. Any nerdy caster UMDing to cast Divine Power becomes a tank in their own right and any nonspellcaster can pretend to cast spells. Given that everyone can use UMD to pretend their someone else everything balances it's self out in the long run.
2. UMD is all about not being you. If your pretending to be someone else to get a job done then obviously you're not good enough. UMD should not be the reason to justify the class as being useful, instead it's own abilities and capabilities should be judged.

Well, the thing is some classes can make very good use of UMD (Artificers, Warlocks, Factotums), mostly because they can make nifty items that let them do things they wouldn't otherwise be able to do.  And UMD is very campaign specific... you need either time to make the items or the ability to buy the items, which is by no means a gaurentee.  With that said, like all abilities it must be considered... the ability to utilize items better than other classes does mean something.  I do agree with you that it tends to be very overrated (at least with classes that don't make their own stuff), and I don't give it THAT high of an importance.  But it does help a bit.

And again, this system is designed to help DMs and players achieve balance.  If the DM is handing out Wands of Shivering Touch and Planar Binding all over the place, he knows exactly what he's going to do to the game.  The balance implications of that are already obvious, so it's not that important to talk about it.

And by the way, thank you for stating your argument in a reasonable way!  I don't quite agree with it, but I do agree with the main thrust of it (UMD is pretty overrated on most classes).

@Kaelik:  Magecraft at low levels is the difference between paying full price for mundane gear when you start and paying 1/3 price for mundane gear (plus the cost of tools) when you start.  That's huge (for a level 1 spell).  And yes, a Wizard generally will need that +5 to bump him up to the ability to hit the DC 20 for masterwork items without ranks (+3 Int, +2 Masterwork Tool, +5 Magecraft).  Clerics will generally use Divine Insight for a similar (but more powerful) trick, but that's a level 2 spell.  I can't think of a single Factotum I've used that hasn't made very good use of Magecraft when starting (except for when I started at level 1, of course).

JaronK
Logged

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!