Suzerain
Bi-Curious George
Posts: 523
is on extended leave
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« on: July 26, 2009, 06:52:15 AM » |
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Foreword by sonofzeal, who’s started this list: Rating PrCs is difficult. It's obvious that some provide too much and some provide too little, but which is which depends on a lot of factors - base class entry being the most obvious. Where the difference between two "logical entries" is huge, those entries can be listed separately (see Rainbow Servant), but just like for base classes, a single PrC can go up or down based on optimization skill, and we should focus on what we see as the "average" use. We should only list a PrC multiple times if the multiple entries are all simple and straightforward given the requirements, as anything else falls under the individual's optimization skill. It's also difficult to categorize power. Soulbow certainly adds more to Soulknives than Mindbender does to Sorcerers, but I think most will agree that a high level Mindbender will still beat a Soulbow with both arms tied behind its back. Still, ranking them that way is merely repeating the obvious, that some base classes are better than other, down through the list of PrCs ad nauseum. That's neither helpful nor productive. Instead, it would make more sense to rate PrCs by how much advantage they give, over their "logical entries". In other words, a PrC for Soulknives is held to a different standard than a PrC for Sorcerers, and the grade tells you how strongly you should consider taking that PrC, assuming you're already working on a build that could qualify. So for this, I'll be referring to Tiers and how the PrC changes them, but I'm aware that there's multiple Tier systems out there that differ in substantial ways, and that some of these gradings will put classes into places they just don't belong when taken literally. A Tier 3 with an "up one" PrC wouldn't necessarily be a Tier 2, and a Tier 1 with a "down two" PrC would probably still be better than most Tier 3 classes. There will also be classes that go off the top or bottom of the scale. The goal is merely to make it clear that an "up two" is better than an "up one", and that both are only in reference to the starting point as given by the "logical entry". To repeat: the ranking is not literal. It's just a guideline to help novice or intermediate players know where to start looking. Books included so far and average tier: This is the predecessor thread: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs. Inspired by the Tier System for Classes thread. And some brave fellas have started cranking out reasonings for the ratings as follows: Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiersPlease help expand this resource by contributing ratings and taking part in the discussion. Setting-neutral books still missing: Complete Champion, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Fiend Folio, Ghostwalk and Weapons of Legacy. Eberron books needed: Dragonmarked, Explorer's Handbook, Faiths of Eberron, Magic of Eberron, Player's Guide to Eberron, Secrets of Sarlona, Secrets of Xen'drik, Sharn: City of Towers Faerun books left: City of Splendors: Waterdeep, Power of Faerun An up-to-date version of the underlying spreadsheet is attached in *.ods (OpenOffice) format. The _copy suffix denotes this is not my working copy of the spreadsheet, but a static copy of one state of the document. The Excel file exceeded the file size restrictions and had to be zipped. |
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« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:46:07 AM by Suzerain »
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Suzerain
Bi-Curious George
Posts: 523
is on extended leave
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2009, 06:52:30 AM » |
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Up Two or More Tiers. These PrCs improve the power of their entry classes dramatically, either by building on strengths or by adding powerful new ones. Expect characters with these to blow their single-classed peers out of the water (and possibly get DM-smote, depending on the base class's power).Up One Tier. These PrCs generally improve their entry classes substantially, without radically affecting game balance. Expect characters with these to be powerful allies or dangerous enemies, without totally overshadowing their single-classed peers.Even. These PrCs are roughly on par with their entry classes overall, trading strengths in certain areas for strengths in others, or provides moderate gains for a moderate investment (ie required feats or unfavorable multiclassing). Expect characters with these to fit naturally into a single-classed party.Down One. These PrCs are generally inferior to their obvious entry classes, losing out on important features in order to gain things that are likely not to matter in the long run. Expect characters with these to struggle in a single-classed party. They may still be viable for cherrypicking, or under heavy optimization. Down Two or More Tiers. These PrCs completely fail to do what they were trying to do, or makes heavy sacrifices for little to no gain. Expect characters with these to be unplayable without heavy optimization effort, or some cunning trick.
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« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 03:39:57 PM by Suzerain »
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Suzerain
Bi-Curious George
Posts: 523
is on extended leave
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2009, 06:52:44 AM » |
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Book of Exalted DeedsBook of Vile DarknessChampions of RuinChampions of ValorCityscapeComplete AdventurerComplete ArcaneComplete DivineComplete MageComplete PsionicsComplete ScoundrelComplete WarriorDraconomiconDrow of the UnderdarkDungeon Master's GuideEberron Campaign SettingExpanded Psionics HandbookExpedition to the Demonweb PitsFaiths and PantheonsFaiths of EberronFrostburnHeroes of BattleHeroes of HorrorLibris MortisLords of MadnessLost Empires of FaerûnMagic of IncarnumMiniatures HandbookPlanar HandbookPlayer's Guide to FaerûnRaces of DestinyRaces of EberronRaces of FaerûnRaces of StoneRaces of the DragonRaces of the WildSandstormSerpent KingdomsShattered Gates of SlaughtergardeShining SouthStormwrackTome of BattleTome of MagicUnapproachable EastUnderdark
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« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 03:42:28 PM by Suzerain »
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Suzerain
Bi-Curious George
Posts: 523
is on extended leave
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2009, 06:52:58 AM » |
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Reserved just in case I find something useful to do with this space.
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« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 07:35:31 AM by Suzerain »
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Optimator
Bi-Curious George
Posts: 495
Made Man
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2009, 05:32:40 PM » |
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Great job formatting. This is a really useful resource.
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2009, 05:46:05 PM » |
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I might be even tempted to drop solar channeler down to -2, since you lose three levels of casting, and gain nothing of value.
Your class features lets you transform into something that's less powerful. Oh, and you can't use your magic items. And it costs a turn attempt per minute.
Seriously, there's no reason why you'd want to take it.
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Salt_Crow
Ring-Tailed Lemur
Posts: 64
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2009, 08:33:06 PM » |
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Explorer's Handbook (Eberron supplement)
Cataclysm Mage [+1]
Logical Entry: Wizard 5 (many of its abilities are actually tied to Intelligence, not Charisma. This makes Sorcerer a much worse choice)
Reasoning: Very easy to qualify with DM cooperation or just a clever backstory ("must have had a vision"). 9/10 Spellcasting progression and you gain some odd AoE-damage dealing abilities and some odd bonuses, but the capstone ability: Choose any dragonmark from lesser to greater, which you may change each day. Catch? The dragons WILL kill you (it's not even a part of "CM in the world", it's a part of the ability that makes Eberron dragons want to kill you. Bad) when they know that you have this dragonmark-for-free abiliy.
For those of you who aren't familiar with dragonmarks, it translates roughly to: true seeing, find the path, animal growth, SNA V, heal, heroes' feast, mage's magnificent mansion, fabricate, major creation, overland flight, teleport, sending, globe of invulnerability, mislead, prying eyes, shadow walk, control winds, control weather, mage's faithful hound, greater glyph of warding OR guards and wards once per day. And that's just Greater Dragonmarks, and you can even take the Mark of Death, which requires much DM cooperation (can make someone a Lich upon death, if the legends are correct).
Any one of them, plus various bonuses and destructive abilities based on Intelligence (unlike many other PrCs with similar abilities) makes it a very potent wizard, especially if you are an Eberron person.
The catch (yet again): You must fulfill "personal prophecies" laid out in the class description to advance in the class. This includes easy tasks such as "Be swallowed whole" and "Die", but also more cryptic adventures such as "speak with a giant who never dreams" etc etc (total of 12). Therefore, unless your DM and fellow players are willing to cooperate (or unless you start at ECL 15 or higher), you may have some problems there.
Overall, a very, very nice class whose capstone ability gives you a virtual 6th-level or lower spell slot with predetermined spell-like abilities in them. Be careful around dragons though. They'll hate you for taking that capstone ability.
Also: this class (if it advances infusions) can enable you to make a Warforged Artificer 7/CM 10/Cannith Wand Adept 3, because you'll meet the dragonmark requirement of CWA then.
Thunder Guide [-1]
Logical Entry: Fighter 4, Barbarian 4, Ranger 4, Rogue 6 and so on. Not that hard to qualify, not that much to gain either.
Reasoning: 3/4 BAB and good Fort. Lets you gain some negligible bonuses based on your choices of "Thunder lore" and "Native ties" abilities, and the capstone ability makes you famous. Really! The capstone ability lets you use the title of "Lord" (or "Lady") in any of the Four Nations (r.i.p. Cyre), and lets you use transports for free. You're so famous that those "companies" (dragonmarked houses) benefit from just the fact that you were onboard with their transport. That's the capstone ability of the class.
If you haven't quite grasped the gist of it, the one before that (9th-level) gives you money. 1,000gp per point of Charisma you have, and that's the brand loyalty to write your stories in the most popular newspaper in the whole continent. Everyone in the world will know and love the over-the-top descriptions of your daring adventures.
So if you want to play a class that's actually based on gaining fame and fortune as its class ability, it's the class for you. CO perspective? Not so hot. Unless you want to play a guy called Guybrush Threepwood, because you can hold your breath for 1 minute per point of Constitution. Yes, you can hold your breath for ten minutes.
Windwright Captain [-2]
Logical Entry: Half-elf bard 7, artificer 7
Reasoning: 3/5 spellcasting progression (specifically advances infusion) that lets you control your own airship like it's your own body. I mean, really. You have to pay up to 9k XP to actually access the abilities that makes this class unique. So unless you're going to name your own airship Millenium Falcon and be a super-pilot, stay well away from the class.
2 levels of the class might be worth it if you want to borrow an airship indefinitely though. I'd just spend 92k and forget about it myself.
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« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 08:39:58 PM by Salt_Crow »
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Sinfire Titan
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2009, 08:40:59 PM » |
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Shadowsun Ninja should be either +0 or +1 (Dmna's Monk builds only). +0 because no one in their right mind uses the capstone, but the rest of the class features are decent (especially the healing and Darkness ability), +1 because an optimized Monk can deal a shit ton of Negative and Positive energy with each attack. Any build that can deal 12d8+Str+Wis negative energy damage per hit and then turn around and heal an ally equal to the negative energy damage dealt is not a -1 PrC.
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Nuntius Mortis
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2009, 09:19:22 PM » |
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I actually disagree about the Initiate of Pistis Sophia: This class stacks the monk AC bonus, the unarmed strike damage, the flurry of blows, the speed and the ki strike progression (so that your ki strike could still be considered adamantine). Yes, a lot of Monk PrCs advance most monk abilities (AC bonus, unarmed strike, flurry, speed etc.) but not all advance the ki strike progression. So, if a Monk multiclassed into Initiate of Pistis Sophia by 16 level (he can enter the class at 6) he could lose wholeness of body (which good but could easily be taken with one more monk level), diamond body, diamond soul, quivering palm, tongue of the sun of moon (while a nice ability fluff-wise, it's not that important if you're not the party face), empty body, perfect self, timeless body and the slow fall progression (but who cares about slow fall?), he could still get improved evasion and he would instead get detect evil at will (handy but not great of course), a smite attack (not so useful though), electricity resistance (not so big but still good), uncanny and improved uncanny dodge (always good in my book), celestial transformation (outsider (native) type and DR 10/evil) and 4 bonus feats (Fist of the Heavens and 3 sacred vows). If you make the math it actually trades 8 class features for 10 class features (3 bonus sacred vows among them). Yes, sacred vows are restrictive but they give a lot of bonuses as well so if you're effectively planning on turning your Monk into a celestial that's the best way to do it. Also, if you wanted to take sacred vows with your Monk, this PrC could help you being less feat-intensive and save some space for feats like Touch of Golden Ice  Overally, I believe that it is in no way a -1 PrC. I think that it's in the borders of weak +1 to strong +0. |
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sonofzeal
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2009, 12:40:27 AM » |
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Heyhey there! What's been going on in my lengthy absence? =P If this is a subtle hint to update the list more, then I can get around to it some day. I'm more than happy to see someone else take the helm though!
Book: Fiend Folio
"Fiend of Blasphemy" - Totally focussed on getting people to do the ritual with you, but pretty sweet in the right context. Highly campaign dependent, but I'd call it Equal to Up One, erring on the side of Up One just because of how well the mechanics support and augment the flavour. Give this to a player in a freeform social campaign, and they'll take over the world in a year.
"Fiend of Corruption" - Grants wishes. Up Two.
"Fiend of Possession" - Possess a magic sword, give it +5 in properties it didn't already have, make it an Animated Object, get to Bestow Curse on anyone you hit, and if the sword breaks then you can just possess something else instead. And that's before you start possession entire rooms, or people. Up Two.
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« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 12:47:14 AM by sonofzeal »
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Salt_Crow
Ring-Tailed Lemur
Posts: 64
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2009, 12:45:31 AM » |
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Secrets of Xen'drik
Landforged Walker [-1] with Druid; [+1] with Cleric
Logical Entry: Cleric 5 (with Travel domain), Druid 5
Reasoning: 4/5 divine spellcasting progression, so you aren't losing all that much. What do you get in return? Body of Nature allows you to be your own holy symbol (no more O-chul style sunder), get some nice defensive bonuses (elemental resistance, natural armour increase and 50% fortification) and the ability to heal yourself or others up to 5xWis bonus 3 times a day (so lay on hands-like ability). This is already quite nice (although not worth that 1 CL loss) but the rest of the class abilities look rather duplicable (spell-like abilities 1/day etc etc) until you get Plant Shape.
Plant shape works as WS (plants)- 3/day, small to huge using total character level as effective druid level! This wouldn't be so hot for a druid who can just stick to the class and be much more effective. However, for clerics or rangers even, this is a great deal. A cleric for example, could WS into a huge Treant to cast spell normally (has hands and can speak) and wield weapons (armour not needed), as early as 10th level (a druid would get to do this at 15th level)!
I mean, this isn't as game-breaking as dweomerkeepers and co. and you do lose 1 CL for this. But for a melee-focused warforged cleric (w/ travel domain), this can definitely be an awesome choice indeed.
Primal Scholar [+0]
Logical Entry: Wizard 7
Reasoning: full spellcasting PrC (5/5), so as a wizard you're missing out on a few bonus feats. You get bardic knowledge-like ability wrt Xen'drik and gain a handful of mostly action point-related ancient secrets and power of Xen'drik. Things like Secret of Defiance (+1 competence bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities) or Mystery of Magic (choose 1 spell to cast spontaneously without preparing beforehand; up to spell level=class level only) would stand out as they do not need AP to fuel the use.
A flaw with this class would be the fact that it needs AP to fuel many of its abilities, so unless you have Unfettered Heroism going at all times, it's not going to make your wizard any better than it otherwise would. Also, as you cannot take the same ancient secret twice, you'll have to be careful which one to take as your 5th-level ancient secret.
Overall, +0 as it wouldn't be any better or worse than a straight wizard.
Scorpion Wraith [-1]
Logical Entry: Ranger 5
Reasoning: no spellcasting progression but full BAB. Notable abilities include 1/day blindsight (lasting 5+wis round) and 1+wis/day Poison (DC 15+wis) ability. Apart from them, sudden strike and some things that lets you ambush others better... but seriously, how many times is a PC going to ambush NPCs?
When the element of surprise is lost, so is most of the class features.
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2009, 12:48:44 AM » |
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Another note for the fiend of corruption: It's the only way to get fiendish symbiotes without DM action. Including the awesome fiendish familiar.
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KellKheraptis
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2009, 12:59:41 AM » |
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I'd put the Spellguard of Silverymoon at +1 at least, as it progresses Metamagic faster than a straight Wizard or Sorcerer, and also gives an Archmage High Arcana (+1 Spell Power) for free, and none of that ties to the mythal. Actually, nothing in the class save the token ties it to the mythal, and if it's in backstory, it's definitely +1 at least, IMHO.
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Samb
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2009, 01:10:01 AM » |
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I have to say, I have always found this tier system to be much more valid than the base class system for the sole reason that it takes multi-classes into account (ie logical entry class) and I am thankful the Zeal's pet project is back and running.
I'll do an easy one
Dungeon Lord (from dungeonscape)
entry class: any "baddy" race with a castle or dungeon that needs defending. Technically, a Elan or Synad could take this PrC since they are aberrations but mostly this will be a mind flayer or dragon, although a campign where you are an Elan defending yourself in a world where everything is trying to invade you might have its merits.
This will most likely be the BBEG of the Dungeon. Not only is a formidable boss but he can boost his troops (horde lord gives +1-2 bonus on AR and damage to all your minions), get better ones (boost to leadership), teleport all over the you home and clairvoyance AT WILL (scales with your HD too not your class levels). When these five levels are added to an young dragon with and army of goblins the bonuses add up.
Dungeon mastery is a great feature that allows you open and close doors as a free action, treat all terrain as smooth and not set off traps when you pass by them. Dungeon minion lets your minions get all the same benefits (except for not setting off traps).
I would say this is a solid +1 and would be +2 if it was not so dependent on the specific dungeon. Now if your BBEG had the whole underdark as his dungeon......
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2009, 01:26:48 AM » |
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Take the dungeon with you. It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.
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Emy
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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2009, 01:29:58 AM » |
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Take the dungeon with you. It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.
For extra fun be a Tomb Warden too, and have the dungeon also be a tomb. |
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2009, 01:31:21 AM » |
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Take the dungeon with you. It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.
For extra fun be a Tomb Warden too, and have the dungeon also be a tomb. Well, duh. And be a Hathran as well, and have a cohort who's a diplomat from Rasheman set up the place as his embassy. |
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Samb
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« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2009, 01:34:59 AM » |
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Take the dungeon with you. It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.
Well nothing says that you can't have a new dungeon or more than one dungeon at a time. So you could acquire a new dungeon "on the fly". Like Gandulf during the siege of Gondor or something. The race requirements is the only tricky part. |
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Brainpiercing
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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2009, 09:49:50 AM » |
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As a suggestion: Put the logical entry class you considered for the evaluation as an entry in the sorted tables. Or even make another table based on entry classes.
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sonofzeal
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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2009, 03:32:39 PM » |
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As a suggestion: Put the logical entry class you considered for the evaluation as an entry in the sorted tables. Or even make another table based on entry classes.
Problem - sometimes the logical entry is specific, and sometimes it's general, and sometimes it's complicated. Ghost Faced Killer is compared to "Ninja", but Suel Arcanamach is compared to "any non-caster", and War Mind is compared to "multiclassed psi / non-psi". I don't see an easy way to sort these things. |
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