Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.

[Agita]

Addendum to Green Star Adept: Unless there's errata on this that I've missed, its Improved Caster Level ability can be read to add CL even on levels where it advances your spellcasting ability, essentially awarding double CL for those levels. Thus you'd end up with a net of +15 CL. Also, you get to be a (debatably) living statue.

[lans]

On the True Necromancer

Pro-

With Sanctum or earth spell you can be Wizard cleric 1</>2/mystic theurge 2/TrueNecro14/MT 1 and get access to 16/17 casting and thus still get 9th level spells in one class, as well as energy drain and wail of the banshee when the sorcerer gets them.

[ninjarabbit]

Addendum to Green Star Adept: Unless there's errata on this that I've missed, its Improved Caster Level ability can be read to add CL even on levels where it advances your spellcasting ability, essentially awarding double CL for those levels. Thus you'd end up with a net of +15 CL. Also, you get to be a (debatably) living statue.

That doesn't work RAI

Improved Caster Level (Ex): A Green Star adept adds his class level to his caster level in another arcane spellcasting class to determine his effective spellcaster level. If the character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a Green Star adept, the player must decide to which class to add each adept level for this purpose. For example, a 5th-level wizard/4th-level Green Star adept's caster level would be 9th, due to this ability, but he would only have access to 4th-level spells (5th-level wizard plus two arcane spellcasting class levels from being a 4th-level Green Star adept).

Of course the example build doesn't legally qualify for GSA due to not meeting the 4 BAB requirement, way to proofread there Wizards.



Becoming a living statue sucks for these reasons:

* An adept loses his Constitution score and any hit point adjustment for Constitution. However, he gains bonus hit points based on his size: +10 hit points for Small, +20 hit points for Medium, or +30 hit points for Large.

* Unlike other constructs, a Green Star adept has no special immunity to mind-affecting effects. He is essentially a human mind in a magically animated body.

* He is no longer at risk of death from massive damage, but he is immediately destroyed if reduced to 0 hit points. However, unlike other constructs, a Green Star adept can be returned from the dead by any means that would have worked on him before his final transformation.

* He no longer heals damage on his own, and receives no benefit from spells or effects that heal living creatures. However, he can repair himself by means of repair damage spells (see page 120) or his rapid repair ability

[Agita]

Addendum to Green Star Adept: Unless there's errata on this that I've missed, its Improved Caster Level ability can be read to add CL even on levels where it advances your spellcasting ability, essentially awarding double CL for those levels. Thus you'd end up with a net of +15 CL. Also, you get to be a (debatably) living statue.

That doesn't work RAI

Improved Caster Level (Ex): A Green Star adept adds his class level to his caster level in another arcane spellcasting class to determine his effective spellcaster level. If the character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a Green Star adept, the player must decide to which class to add each adept level for this purpose. For example, a 5th-level wizard/4th-level Green Star adept's caster level would be 9th, due to this ability, but he would only have access to 4th-level spells (5th-level wizard plus two arcane spellcasting class levels from being a 4th-level Green Star adept).

Of course the example build doesn't legally qualify for GSA due to not meeting the 4 BAB requirement, way to proofread there Wizards.

True. RAI is clear, RAW we have the rules text and an example using an illegal build contesting the RAI.

Becoming a living statue sucks for these reasons:

* An adept loses his Constitution score and any hit point adjustment for Constitution. However, he gains bonus hit points based on his size: +10 hit points for Small, +20 hit points for Medium, or +30 hit points for Large.

* Unlike other constructs, a Green Star adept has no special immunity to mind-affecting effects. He is essentially a human mind in a magically animated body.

* He is no longer at risk of death from massive damage, but he is immediately destroyed if reduced to 0 hit points. However, unlike other constructs, a Green Star adept can be returned from the dead by any means that would have worked on him before his final transformation.

* He no longer heals damage on his own, and receives no benefit from spells or effects that heal living creatures. However, he can repair himself by means of repair damage spells (see page 120) or his rapid repair ability

I was more thinking of coolness factor. Has little place in a mechanical discussion, but it's there.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Hey, at least you're now a valid target for "incarnate construct"...

Come to think of it, that might be a saving grace for renegade mastermaker.

[Agita]

Hey, at least you're now a valid target for "incarnate construct"...

Come to think of it, that might be a saving grace for renegade mastermaker.

*sniff* I smell abuse. Are there any borked construct-only acquired templates?

Of course, a warforged can do that too, except without class levels.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Not that I can recall.  Constructs get pretty screwed, template-wise.

It does make the Renegade mastermaker a full casting progression class, though.  With two free hit dice, to boot.  Could be used for gaining a higher BAB with divine power, or something.

Green star adept is still pretty sucky, even with incarnate construct slapped onto it.  If you dumped constitution, having a chance to reroll is nice - if you can somehow maximize and empower the ninth level "incarnate construct" spell, you'll end up with a very nice con score, in fact. 

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added: Salt_Crow's description on the Brimstone Speaker and Ians bit on the true necromancer and put in the portion of the Green Star Adept from Agita with a note about it not being RAI.

[Samb]

Lifedrinker:
entry: vampire mage 3 or higher
Pros: This PrC is great for a 1-2 level dip for vampire mages.  Lifewell allows you to do something with the HP and CON damage that you deal.  The features in this class are very good where you can spend lifewell points to get free metamagic WITHOUT changing the spell level slot.  Planar ally is basically a free planar binding without all the risks.  It's capstone gives an impressive DR 25/+3 and haste.  In fact this PrC should be an awesome PrC if not for one fatal flaw.

Cons: NO CL PROGRESSION AT ALL.  That's right, for all the free metamagic feats you get you get no new spells once you enter this PrC.  None. If this had even 6/10 progression it would be a +1, if it had 8/10 it would be one of the deadilest villains your heroes would ever face (pre-epic). 

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added Samb's description of the Lifedrinker.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Lifedrinker:
entry: vampire mage 3 or higher
Pros: This PrC is great for a 1-2 level dip for vampire mages.  Lifewell allows you to do something with the HP and CON damage that you deal.  The features in this class are very good where you can spend lifewell points to get free metamagic WITHOUT changing the spell level slot.  Planar ally is basically a free planar binding without all the risks.  It's capstone gives an impressive DR 25/+3 and haste.  In fact this PrC should be an awesome PrC if not for one fatal flaw.

Cons: NO CL PROGRESSION AT ALL.  That's right, for all the free metamagic feats you get you get no new spells once you enter this PrC.  None. If this had even 6/10 progression it would be a +1, if it had 8/10 it would be one of the deadilest villains your heroes would ever face (pre-epic). 

I prefer to think of "no CL progression" as "please gestalt me!"

[Samb]

Lifedrinker:
entry: vampire mage 3 or higher
Pros: This PrC is great for a 1-2 level dip for vampire mages.  Lifewell allows you to do something with the HP and CON damage that you deal.  The features in this class are very good where you can spend lifewell points to get free metamagic WITHOUT changing the spell level slot.  Planar ally is basically a free planar binding without all the risks.  It's capstone gives an impressive DR 25/+3 and haste.  In fact this PrC should be an awesome PrC if not for one fatal flaw.

Cons: NO CL PROGRESSION AT ALL.  That's right, for all the free metamagic feats you get you get no new spells once you enter this PrC.  None. If this had even 6/10 progression it would be a +1, if it had 8/10 it would be one of the deadilest villains your heroes would ever face (pre-epic). 

I prefer to think of "no CL progression" as "please gestalt me!"

Metamagic that doesn't change the spell slot= mind blowing.  Gestalt with vampire wizard 8//fighter4/lifedrinker6 (fighter for the BAB) would have free max spell, heighten spell, and empower spell all for only 4-6 lifewell points (at 6th level you already have 18).

Life drinker is one PrC that I feel WotC really dropped the ball on.  It could be sooooo good but its flaws makes you wonder.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Solar Channeler (logical entry is cleric 6):

Over the course of the class, you'll lose three levels of spellcasting (and knowledge arcana as a class skill).

What do you gain in return?

The ability to spend a turn attempt to cast a cure spell at range or quicken it. 

The class's central ability, though, is worse than useless.  And shows up after you've taken five levels of the class and lost two caster levels.

Channel solar gives you the ability to transform into a really ugly (look at the picture) solar-like form.  Initially you have to spend a swift action and turn attempt per round, though later it goes down to a turn attempt per minute.  With a price like that, it had better be worth it, right?



What are the advantages and disadvantages of solar form:

Advantages:
A constant, relatively high to hit (+20 on first attack). 
A fixed three iterative attacks. 
A fly speed with good maneuverability
A free magic greatsword that you can regain as an immediate action

Disadvantages:
No Items
No Spells
No other class features


So, yeah.  It's strictly worse than getting a toggleable Vow of Poverty.

[ninjarabbit]

To make a comment about the mindbender:

It's 7th level ability, dominate, is a limited version of dominate monster, normally a 9th level spell. This won't appeal to wizards, sorcerers, and beguilers but it may appeal to hexblades (especially with their debuffing abilities) and warlocks. And you can get it at ECL 12, x5/mindbender7, where mindblank isn't as much of a factor as it would be at ECL 17. Granted it's not enough to save this PrC but for a select few it might be worth looking into.

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added: The_Mad_Linguists description of the Solar Channeler and Ninjarabbit's note on the Mindbender.

[cru]

My attempt of Wavekeeper

Wavekeeper is a 9/10 spell casting aquatic druid

Logical entry:
druid 6
ranger 5
Cleric 5/beastmaster 1 (or cleric 6/druid 1)

Lose:
wild shape progression
1 level of divine spell casting
1 level of animal companion progression

gain:
bonus water-related domain, incl. domain granted power
wave master SLA 1-5 / day - can cause up to 10d6 nonlethal damage or bullrush
swim speed, amphibiousness, water breathing SLA 1/day
ability to modify water currents (increase/impede ship speed)
wave form (at will?) - change to small-huge water elemental (incl. feats)
SLA: summon elder water elemental 1/day

Note: druid 5 can select the Aspect of the Dragon ACF (replaces wild shape) for some bonuses that stack with huge water elemental form

Summary (druid entry): lose wild shape versatility, gain water elemental forms sooner; water abilities
Summary (ranger entry): huge water elemental form is better than what a ranger normally can accomplish (esp. at lvl 14)
Summary (cleric): loses another spellcasting level, but huge water elemental form is quite nice

[Surreal]

I would say the Wavekeeper is no worse than a -1 for druids, and at par for rangers or higher depending if it's a water campaign. Wave form at will is a pretty strong ability at those earlier levels, but usefulness is highly dependent on the environment.

[Gr1lledcheese]

If a druid lost spell casting and his animal companion, he would still be a tier 3. The power and versatility of wild shape is one of his biggest contributing factors to the druid's arsenal. Losing wild shape progression hurts, a lot, which is why this PrC is down 2 tiers.

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added Cru's description of the wavekeeper.

[ninjarabbit]

If a druid lost spell casting and his animal companion, he would still be a tier 3. The power and versatility of wild shape is one of his biggest contributing factors to the druid's arsenal. Losing wild shape progression hurts, a lot, which is why this PrC is down 2 tiers.

Just to add to that, the wildshape ranger variant is considred a tier 3 and it has a much weaker wildshape than the druid.