How it works: Silent Image?

[Kaelik]

Um what? Did you read what you linked? What you linked supports A not B.

I can only assume you smoke crack.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I seem to recall a clarification on the website in favor of them not having any immunity...

[Negative Zero]

This may not be official, but Sean K Reynolds writes for Wizards and wrote this on the subject:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html

[Hallack]

Yep, Negative Zero, that's the way the rules work.  Good link

[LimaBeanMage]

Um what? Did you read what you linked? What you linked supports A not B.

I can only assume you smoke crack.

Then I might be laboring under a misconception in their argument. If I am in error, then it stems mainly from this excerpt: (and thus gain a saving throw to disbelieve with no study or interaction). All creatures who have both an intelligence score and a wisdom score, and do not possess true seeing, must interact with or study an illusion in order to merit a saving throw or disbelieve outright. Mindless creatures, if my argument A is supported, have even less of a chance to receive a saving throw. So, who or what does that supplied statement apply to?

And sir, or mam,  I take offense to that last comment.

[Kaelik]

Read the whole thing: My emphasis.

"A mindless creature, however, is much less likely to find something just plainly unbelievable (and thus gain a saving throw to disbelieve with no study or interaction) than a creature with an Intelligence score would be."

A mindless creature is less likely t gain a saving throw to disbelieve with no study or interaction.

Of course, no one at all actually gets a saving throw without study or interaction, so in fact, the quote by WotC demonstrates how bad they are at even knowing their own rules, however, their intent to show that mindless creatures have a harder time identifying illusions as illusions is correctly conveyed.

[LimaBeanMage]

Well, if that is indeed exactly what they meant, then what happens to mindless creatures while interacting with illusions? That small parenthesized statement is the only actual reference to any rule or game mechanic. If their intent was as you are interpreting, then the entire paragraph in the simplest terms reads "Mindless creatures suck at seeing illusions, but have wisdom scores and thus get a saving throw."

Of course, that leaves us where we began, with no real ruling statement on what to do with mindless creatures and illusions.

I think I will supply other people with this article and see what they make of it.

[Kaelik]

Do you not understand how parenthetical statements work?

The parenthetical statement about saving throws is an explanation of what they mean by the fact that mindless creatures are less likely to find something unbelievable.

In a hypothetical situation, in which you cast Silent Image to create an Illusory wall in front of an enemy, a mindful creature is capable of saying, "He could have summoned a wall, or he could have cast an illusion." And thus be likely to test the solidity of the wall.

A Mindless creature, depending on it's orders might on the other hand just stop moving (if ordered to attack nearest visible creature) or decide to pummel the wall thus getting a saving throw, if ordered to directly attack most recently located enemies within a certain area, or maybe it might look for a way around the wall if it has been ordered to seek out enemies that attempt to escape.

Yes, WotC writers thought for some strange reason that minful creatures could get saving throws without interacting or studying, when they cannot. But it doesn't change the fact that they clearly explained that Mindless creatures are less capable of discerning illusions as illusions.

I am frankly boggled by how you could even get the conclusion you did from any part of that passage, even out of context.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

When I GM I let players roll to disbelieve truly ludicrous things.  (in fact, I give them extremely high will saves every round even if they don't say the magic words).

Of course, they don't get that roll for everything - just things like a pair of kobolds suddenly merging together and growing into a towering fifty meter monster with a thousand eyes and forty slathering flaming jaws.

[Kaelik]

When I GM I let players roll to disbelieve truly ludicrous things.  (in fact, I give them extremely high will saves every round even if they don't say the magic words).

Of course, they don't get that roll for everything - just things like a pair of kobolds suddenly merging together and growing into a towering fifty meter monster with a thousand eyes and forty slathering flaming jaws.

How ridiculous is that really in a world of Mirror Images that expire, Dvati, and Shapechange.

Your crazy example isn't quite possible in the rules, but it's pretty close.

In my experience, almost anything you make an illusion of isn't obviously an illusion.

You could create a fake wall of fire, but you could also create a real one, so people have to consider that. You can cast polymorph, so if you change into a crazy creature, that's pretty believable, ect.

[veekie]

When I GM I let players roll to disbelieve truly ludicrous things.  (in fact, I give them extremely high will saves every round even if they don't say the magic words).

Of course, they don't get that roll for everything - just things like a pair of kobolds suddenly merging together and growing into a towering fifty meter monster with a thousand eyes and forty slathering flaming jaws.

How ridiculous is that really in a world of Mirror Images that expire, Dvati, and Shapechange.

Your crazy example isn't quite possible in the rules, but it's pretty close.

In my experience, almost anything you make an illusion of isn't obviously an illusion.

You could create a fake wall of fire, but you could also create a real one, so people have to consider that. You can cast polymorph, so if you change into a crazy creature, that's pretty believable, ect.

Pretty much, most things capable of creating an illusion are also likely to be capable of making the real deal. Thats the tricky part, figuring out what is real and what is not.

I'd actually let them roll spot/listen to notice some aspect of the illusion that warrants a will save.