WLD: Most balanced campaign?

[Shadowhunter]

Correct me if I'm wrong by all means, but there are no actual rules on how they learn them, are they?
Just that they do.
Then it becomes a personal interpretation exactly how the Wizard learns his spells.

Personally, I say that Wizards needs downtime and access to studying material if they are going to add new spells to their spellbook that wasn't there before.

Correct me if I'm wrong by all means, but there are no actual rules on how Barbarians get their rage, are there?
Just that they do.
Then it becomes a personal interpretation exactly how the Barbarian gets his rage.

Personally, I say that Barbarians needs downtime and access to 72 goats and 46 quarts of ale if they are going to rage more times than they could before.

My parody is effortless because your argument is so bad. Your claim that they require study materials is exactly opposite to the implied method of gaining spells in the PHB.

But even if it wasn't. When the rules don't tell you how someone gets a new ability, the correct response is not to make something up. Just like when the history book doesn't tell you how many people died in a battle, making up the answer is not a good idea.

*sigh*

Let's just agree to disagree, alright?

This whole debate can be summed up in Chaotic Good vs. Lawful Neutral.

You: "These are the rules. What's not in the rules are to be ignored. Any interpretation, regardless wether or not it would make sense in the game, are to be ignored. The rules state what I can do and can't, regardles of circumstances."

Me: "These are the rules. They're good to have and lets play by them. It's unclear how this would work in-game. A resonable assumption is X. X won't affect the results, but the process. Because it makes more sense."

A:
Dipping into wizard after 8 levels of ranger would require some serious downtime under which the ranger learns the fundamentals of arcane magic. Or that during his career, he have meddled in arcane learning and after enough time his knowledge is complete enough to let him cast arcane spells. In my oppinion.

B:
Dipping into wizard after 8 levels of ranger requires enough XP. The ranger can just level up and the next day go around tossing Magic Missile at random dudes, even though 2 days earlier he didn't know how arcane magic worked at all in any shape or form. Because the rules don't say that you need to do anything in game in this case. The rules.

Any campaign I've played or DM'd have used option A. Because it makes sense. It's not excplicitly stated in the rules how it happens, but it makes sense.
You seem not to concern yourself with this and go by option B.
Different ways to play the game.

I'm reflecting on how the rules should mirror the in-game reality, not the other way around.

I'll ask again:

If it makes more sense from the roleplaying point of veiw and the game mechanics stays almost exactly (full spellbook)/stays exactly the same (scroll* drop), there's no problem right?

We agree that the wizard should gain his spells.
We disagree how he gains them.
We agree that WLD won't make a difference or not for the wizard.
We disagree why it won't make a difference.


Since the topic is about wether or not the wizard gets his spells, let's leave it at that.

[Kaelik]

Any campaign I've played or DM'd have used option A. Because it makes sense. It's not excplicitly stated in the rules how it happens, but it makes sense.
You seem not to concern yourself with this and go by option B.
Different ways to play the game.

Your horrendous strawman is not appreciated. Your system does not make more sense, it is not more like what the game describes. It is you specifically choosing one of billions of fluff options and saying "NO BAD PLAYER! You have to play your character the way I think he should be. No itmes, Fox only, Final Destination!"

That's a lot worse than having a wide set of possible character concepts that can be permitted by the rules, and are all in fact encouraged by the rules.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

According to the core books, if you multiclass into wizard you're retroactively assumed to have been dabbling in the arcane arts for the past few levels.

[Midnight_v]

According to the core books, if you multiclass into wizard you're retroactively assumed to have been dabbling in the arcane arts for the past few levels.

Damn + 1000 TML.
I was searching for that quote even as I read the last couple posts.

[Shadowhunter]

Any campaign I've played or DM'd have used option A. Because it makes sense. It's not excplicitly stated in the rules how it happens, but it makes sense.
You seem not to concern yourself with this and go by option B.
Different ways to play the game.

Your horrendous strawman is not appreciated.

I appologise.

"NO BAD PLAYER! You have to play your character the way I think he should be. No itmes, Fox only, Final Destination!"

Then my point have obviously not come across. What I'm trying to say is "Hold on a sec! You might consider this if you haven't already. I think it makes more sense, so just consider it. No items, anything but Pichu , Hyrule Castle is a fun course".

I was trying to explain why I thought the authors had a point and why it might make sense.
Whilst you -and I can only guess, mind you- considered it and refuted, I got the impression that you weren't listening in the first place.

I'm not claiming my way is the one you have to use.

I've never claimed that you have to play my way.

In fact, point it out to me and I'll gladly both appologise for everybodies headache at me wasting space and my input. [honest tone, not sarcastic or passive agressive]

I'm claiming I think it makes more sense.

The campain authors reasoning might be in line with my oppinion, so here's why they might have a point.
Though I don't agree on PlzBreakMyCampaigns interpretation.

I explicitly claimed it was a personal oppinion.

My sole purpose was to make you consider something I thought you'd agree on if you thought about it.

That is all.

I admit that my metaphor about the wizard and the ranger was faulty. Should pick a better one in the future.

Can we drop this now?

[RobbyPants]

According to the core books, if you multiclass into wizard you're retroactively assumed to have been dabbling in the arcane arts for the past few levels.

Damn + 1000 TML.
I was searching for that quote even as I read the last couple posts.

Quote?  Hell, I was searching for the strip!  Linky! (off by a few hours, but oh well).

[j0lt]

You know what. Fuck you. There is no real Caelic. Nor am I a fake Caelic. I am Kaelik. That has been my fuckin name since before he thought up the Name Caelic, unless Caelic is also his actual name and he is older than me.

You're being a jerk.  Stop being a jerk.

[Kaelik]

You know what. Fuck you. There is no real Caelic. Nor am I a fake Caelic. I am Kaelik. That has been my fuckin name since before he thought up the Name Caelic, unless Caelic is also his actual name and he is older than me.

You're being a jerk.  Stop being a jerk.

No I'm not. You know what is being a jerk. Incessant trolling. Stop Trolling.

[j0lt]

You know what. Fuck you. There is no real Caelic. Nor am I a fake Caelic. I am Kaelik. That has been my fuckin name since before he thought up the Name Caelic, unless Caelic is also his actual name and he is older than me.

You're being a jerk.  Stop being a jerk.

No I'm not. You know what is being a jerk. Incessant trolling. Stop Trolling.

1. Yes, yes you are.  Whether you recognize or admit it or not is completely irrelevant since everybody else sees it.

2.

Trolling has an actual definition. It is not anything close to what I have done.

If I were posting these messages in an effort to further antagonize you, then yes, I'd be trolling.  I'm not.  I'm posting these messages in the vain hope that you'll actually figure out that the way you're treating people is NOT acceptable and should stop.

So, once again:

You're being a jerk.  Stop being a jerk.

[Kaelik]

You're being a jerk.  Stop being a jerk.

Stop being retarded. I'm not posting this to further antagonize you. I'm posting in the vain hope you will stop being retarded.

[j0lt]

Keep it up Caelic.

[Midnight_v]

 I don't think this is really all that relevant . . . its prolly not that crucial; his behavior that is.
Lets just move on? Or take it to pm.

[Alastar]

I'd just like to point out that there's several ways to demonstrate your arguments without being agressive or insulting about it.

But then, this wouldn't be the internets...

[Midnight_v]

I'd just like to point out that there's several ways to demonstrate your arguments without being agressive or insulting about it.

But then, this wouldn't be the internets...

True true, and also some people do it and its really quite entertaining. Look at Frank and Keith? They have this no-nonsense, no holds barred approach that makes them interesting to read. Its just some people don't like that style AT ALL; furhter most people who emulate that style fail at it so you know its like they come off as a dick all the time. Which sucks. Though people whining about it constantly just adds to the problem and gets everyone further from the actual discussion.
It's an excellent "Red herring fallacy":
Poster 1: "Listen fucktards, the druid, gets more class features than everyone else by DEFAULT thats why we say its better. Its the 20 level divine gish-in-the-box and between it its animal companion its shapechangery and its magic + free unlimited minute balls free summon magic. This class will kill your fighters instantly... along with 2 more builds just like him and have a beastiality orgy with the pc who always place the female elf
"for a change of pace".
Poster 2. : You're wrong! It isn't right to curse and swear like that. You doing that shows your bias towards the fighter class! Clean up your act an let us discuss "civilly" or not at all.
Poster 1: $*)%*!? You dont' adress any of my points! I don't care about your feelings only that your OMFGBBQXXX! Wrong.
................
Thing is we're not talking about the druid v. FighterX anymore we're talking about ettiquette
  Now how often do we see this? All the damn time. I kind feel like lets just live and let live. Trying to enforce politeness on the internet is a losing propostion. politness, logic. ... basic human decency really. So I'm gonna side with yeah yeah "what's your point" guy 9times out of 10 but really just refute his point and THEN tell him what a dick he's being and lets move on y'know?

[RobbyPants]

Keep it up Caelic.

You can't possibly call him a troll and then say that, knowing that it bothers him.  I agree with Midnight.

[j0lt]

Yeah, I admit that was a blatant dig.  But there's only so much BS that we should be expected to put up with.

[juton]

@Shadowhunter

This is something that's not outright stated, but essential to understanding CharOp or Min/Max it. There is no universal GM. Because of that there should be no extra interpretations or extensions of the rules. There should only be pure RAW (Rules as Written) because every play here has access to the same rules as written. So your not wrong for having Wizards need to have to study to get new spells in your campaign, but a lot of people hate to hear that their playing the game wrong if you're not using the right house rules. For the record I don't think that's the point you where trying to get across.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

You know what. Fuck you. There is no real Caelic.

Unlike you or me, Caelic is a well-known COer. This board is new and is very lenient of such disgusting speech, but the official one sees much more of him here, here, and here.

If it weren't for the WSoDs, this forum would be unneeded (both are down about equally).


But back on topic: the initial balance conversation never happened, but I don't mind. When I first made this thread I was thinking about making it a sort of challenge. How best to whoop WLD even under strict circumstances. Obviously a crusader dip or dread necro or DFA will be in there

I think I'll add the level-ups-by-area houserule to the OP strict circumstances, since page 7 says: "If the PCs earn XP at the 'normal' rate, they'll be 8th level before they leave the first map" and "It is our intention that PCs advance only twice per map." It even has a chart for the level amounts per area. This was already mentioned in passing so I'd like to make sure this sounds reasonable.

[Kaelik]

Unlike you or me, Caelic is a well-known COer. This board is new and is very lenient of such disgusting speech, but the official one sees much more of him here, here, and here.

I know exactly who Caelic is. That doesn't make him 'real' and me 'fake' And it's frankly incredibly stupid of you to imply that I'm some kind of fake. I didn't choose this name to mimic him or be like him, In fact, I've been using this name far in advance of Nov 2002, which is the earliest I've heard of him.

Whenever someone calls me by a name that is not mine and is different from the little one to the left of all my posts I wonder if they are retarded or just doing it on purpose to be dick.

jolt: Dick
You:
My players in the game I DM here: I can only assume they have no reason to be a dick, and thus are retarded.

But it's okay. Because if you were the real plzbreakmycampaign you'd know that already. You fake.

But back on topic: the initial balance conversation never happened, but I don't mind. When I first made this thread I was thinking about making it a sort of challenge. How best to whoop WLD even under strict circumstances. Obviously a crusader dip or dread necro or DFA will be in there

Actually, if I were trying to make a real party, it would be Wizard/Druid/Beatdown Cleric/Artificer. But it's no surprise that Tier 1 is better than Tier 2-3 in the WLD, because they are always better.

If I wanted to make an endurance run or felt like playing down to the dungeon (because let's face it, past level 7ish, you'd be raping the poor dungeon with a good Tier 1 party and it wouldn't be too nice before that) DFA/Crusader/Artificer (homunculus in my pocket)/Druid would be nice. Artificer could make two eternal wands of restoration (as level 1 spells) if your DM really wanted to complain about sleep.

I think I'll add the level-ups-by-area houserule to the OP strict circumstances, since page 7 says: "If the PCs earn XP at the 'normal' rate, they'll be 8th level before they leave the first map" and "It is our intention that PCs advance only twice per map." It even has a chart for the level amounts per area. This was already mentioned in passing so I'd like to make sure this sounds reasonable.

They say that, but that's if you seriously hunt through the whole zone and kill every single creature. However, as far as I can tell, each place has a thing you need to do, and some other stuff, if you just solved the problem and felt free to move to the next zone without hunting down every side passage you would probably only be maybe a level ahead of the zone expects at any given time.

[Alastar]

If I wanted to make an endurance run or felt like playing down to the dungeon (because let's face it, past level 7ish, you'd be raping the poor dungeon with a good Tier 1 party and it wouldn't be too nice before that) DFA/Crusader/Artificer (homunculus in my pocket)/Druid would be nice. Artificer could make two eternal wands of restoration (as level 1 spells) if your DM really wanted to complain about sleep.

I respectfully disagree.

You can only go around being tier 1 for so long before taking a wrong turn and ending up facing a tier 1 with more spells than you.

For example.  The party that runs throught the place has 3 tier 1 in it.  a wizard necromancer, a wizard conjurer, and an artificier.  The conjurer doubles as a gish.  They go into a room, and trigger the confusion effects of the room.  The two wizards fail their will save.  The gish kills the necromancer.  The necromancer rerolls a monk shadow sun ninja, he is now tier 3.  He has infinite healing and scouting.  It is much appreciated as they lacked that.

Later on, they take a wrong turn at level 10, they end up in the laboratory of a level 14 drider sorcerer.  He feebleminds them all, and starts doing experiments on them.  In the scenario where your four little tier 1 took that wrong turn, they would also have been crushed.  That guy is crazy, and was later joined by a level 12 drider fighter.