WLD: Most balanced campaign?

[Midnight_v]

If he didn't have such a fighter bias

Now it's starting to sound like we're dealing with Aelryinth here...

Its funny you should say that. It crossed my mind. Except... except though I've had more than my fair share of disagreements with him, I think he's grown a lot as a poster and believe it or not... and optimizer. However he still thinks anyone who disagrees with him is sunicflames. So no not this time, I do have the feeling that I've seen PBMC before somewhere around the community.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

From your post of jibberish? Yeh you're right.

+

If you emphasis 1 house rule then add apendix A-F you may well fucking wrong

=
English Fail

Now regardless of thier status as "options" when you actually implement them they become "houserules"

Those options, except the 1, are RAW. WBL? I guess I just made that one up as a fun house rule.

so basically in addition to banning summoning there's also the idea in there to ban battlefield control.

I don't care. I like BC. I haven't said anything to the contrary.

its been showed many times in this thread why thats wrong so there's no need to harp on it. really except to say. You suck.

I suck because I didn't revise the OP fast enough for you? You should have read my post previous to your quote. That would help yourself out from sounding like a 12 year old on the internet. The 'I never liked you' part really gave it away.  

Along with banning entangle. . . but thats two bans.

Hmm Perhaps this is trolling? I discussed that many times already.

There are a thousand + rooms in that dungeon that the party could set up for and use for rest purposes.

This is on topic. Perhaps devising a method that help negate the random encounters would be useful.

So what? A druid can only wildshape up to his hit dice. The knowledge check is His hitdice +3 typically, thusly the druid statistically would know the animals he can change into.

Where did you find this? I'm not gonna dig, since it seems you know.

"Good luck finding an animal companion" thats just stupid. ... Clearly there are animals there

the book says otherwise.

1. No summoning (and I'd be willing to accept that based on the story, really)
2. Ban Battlefield control spells (okay so... we're just slowly limiting the options to spellcasters which basically bumps us down to "The Master of the save or die" and ... thats whats left illusion/necromacy/enchantment. Yeah. Oh wait evocation.
3. Ban the druid... (cause seriously.. what CAN a druid do in a dungeon ..containing every animal in the srd?)

You agree on 1. 2 was never said by me. 3 I am not interested in banning the druid. Did you really read any of this thread? Again I am wondering about the trolling. Lets hope it doesn't get to three times.

but its the suggestion/interpretations that you make are just utterly ridiculous frankly.

Its better than looking like a jerk. I replied to everything relevant. Let me know exactly which interpretations are so ridiculous. Is it that erk-some WBL?

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

And the only thing in that book that makes me rage is the fact that they say you should disallow acces to Web because they did the same thing. Then, the first spellbook you find contains Web. W T F ?

You don't have to listen to all their suggestions. Apparently they don't either. Its only a suggestion. Besides, I love web  

[awesome stuff]

Awesome. I know your houserules aren't balanced, but I love'em! I noticed the typos too. Thanks for the input.

Yeah, my guess is your leet fighter of high AC just dies from ...

Mine? What? I said the fighter. Like the iconic DnD party? Have you never heard of it or read OOTS?

So yeah, no, your fighter dies without spells. Your fighter dies of being a fighter as soon as he runs into the Ogre you fight at level 1, if not long before to Darkmantles and swarms.

I don't have any fighters. Like... none. Not even multiclass ones. Or other character with a dip...

Yeah. But good. Let the fighters die. That'll teach whoever to learn to try a few tiers up. I only mentioned nerfs to tier 1's. That does not mean Tier 5's get free handouts now.   

I'm pretty sure your players will just laugh at you  if you even try 25 encounters a day.

Its worth a try. I'd join a campaign like that. Wouldn't you?

You get it behind closed doors. That don't have random people barging in every five minutes.

PCs are the only things capable of opening a door?

They are in the Druid and Knowledge skill sections of the PHB. And a dictionary if your DM tries really hard to be an ass. Like you apparently do.

Huh? When did I say that you would need a dictionary? I didn't see any mention of wildshaping here. Perhaps you mean the DC30 for a really hard question (which direction does the inner fur grow in a ___)? So ya, explain yourself.

And if he has no spells, why the fuck would he even bother to get up. Either the Druid (cause you want a good fighter not an actual fighter) takes it at the door and he doesn't get involved, or he is dead. So either the Fighter dies, or the Wizard gets spells.

If one character can solo the creatures involved then you don't need a part . But if I were a half intelligent monster getting whooped on by a druid I'd be interested in harrassing his wizard friend in the corner.

So I think going from level 1 to level 20 in 12 days puts most of his other claims, like, the dungeon lasting 2 years, to shame.

I like fast-paced campaigns. This is obviously an extreme example, but keep in mind that even creatures with CR low enough to not give XP can be annoying enough to wrile up a group.

Who is 'he' in this quote? I never claimed to take two years for anything related here.

If he didn't have such a fighter bias, the same guy who's telling us that druids can never spend an hour communing with nature would be jumping through hoops making up bullshit houserule versions of why crusaders can't punch each other non lethally.

I hope you are just having a bad day. If you are serious I challenge you to find even 1 statement like 'i love fighters' or even just a single use of a fighter level in any build. I'll give you a hint: I never have.

note that the WLD has a fixed levelling rate- they mention that if you don't follow it you'd be level 8, when if you followed it you'd be level two.
Thus, xp components are, practically speaking, free

Ah yes. I remember that. Well that does make a lot of sense. I'll think about this. That might add an extra house rule to the other house rule WLD has. Interesting.

[JaronK]

Well, you really didn't because you have to fight through 9 levels of no healing and sleeping. If you dip one level in Crusader, well, you are really just showing how a Crusader and some friends and a DM who doesn't get pissy can do.

If you didn't want to dip Crusader, you could take Martial Study at level 2 (Fighter bonus feat) and Martial Stance at 3, for Martial Spirit, and have a chance for the first 8 levels.  Now, there's the obvious question of why you'd spend a Fighter bonus feat on that when a Crusader dip would be far superior, but this is only for the theoretical idea of making a pure Fighter only build that can do it.  Obviously, the Crusader version would be better, but that's not quite the point. 

Anyway, this basic build could do it:  Dragonborn Water Orc Fighter 10 with (taken in this order) Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Martial Study, Martial Stance, Combat Focus, Shock Trooper, Combat Stability, Leap Attack, Combat Vigor, Headlong Rush.  Can self heal and heal the party by level 3 (good luck with those first two levels, but maybe the high strength and con will somehow see him through), and can heal quite nicely by 9, plus he's an effective charger.  Obviously, changing this to something with more Crusader and Lion Totem Barbarian would be far better, but then again there'd be favored class issues to deal with.

Point being, you can indeed make a hard hitting Fighter that can heal himself (and the party) relatively well all day long.  Now, you're going to need someone else for the traps and social stuff and everything else, but it's doable!

If he didn't have such a fighter bias, the same guy who's telling us that druids can never spend an hour communing with nature would be jumping through hoops making up bullshit houserule versions of why crusaders can't punch each other non lethally.

Let's not put words in anyone's mouth.

JaronK

[Kaelik]

Mine? What? I said the fighter. Like the iconic DnD party? Have you never heard of it or read OOTS?

I don't have any fighters. Like... none. Not even multiclass ones. Or other character with a dip...

SO in response to me calling out how wrong you are about your bullshit totally wrong statement, your solution is to say, "Well I don't like fighters!" Guess what, HP damage applies to all classes, so unless you are a Dread Necro or Crusader, you need people to regain spells or have crafting time to live more than one level. So yes, your bullshit claim that Fighters can take no HP damage is wrong, I don't care if it's your fighter or the fighter, it applies to all possible classes that are not a dread necro and Crusader. So look, you fail. Either casters get spells or everyone dies before level 2. Period.

Its worth a try. I'd join a campaign like that. Wouldn't you?

No I wouldn't. That would be retarded. Such a houserule does not benefit the game at all, especially since the only thing it does is force the players to, assuming they have a Crusader, hole up in a room and try to grind their way up in level without exploration, because exploration requires them to fight more enemies with a worse set up.

PCs are the only things capable of opening a door?

No, my claim is that most creatures can't open doors, and even more most won't try if it's locked, and even more won't find the secret door in the first place, and suddenly enemy every hour becomes enemy every 12, and then you just rest, regain spells and HP, and craft, and go about your day. Compare that to your claim that you will have a combat every hour. Which I know is bullshit, because I've played the game, and half the rolls on your random encounter dice are "nothing happens."

Huh? When did I say that you would need a dictionary? I didn't see any mention of wildshaping here. Perhaps you mean the DC30 for a really hard question (which direction does the inner fur grow in a ___)? So ya, explain yourself.

No, I said you need a dictionary, because reading the knowledge rules and the Druid entry does not tell you anything if you don't know what the words mean. That is why I provided a definition of familiar for you, to save you the dictionary.

If one character can solo the creatures involved then you don't need a part . But if I were a half intelligent monster getting whooped on by a druid I'd be interested in harrassing his wizard friend in the corner.

And if one character can't solo the creatures, then you probably have no business sending 24 of them a day at the party.

But just to be clear, if you walked into a room and their was a guy lying on the floor asleep and another guy swinging a two by four at your head, your response would be to go punch the sleeping guy in the head as hard as possible while not trying to stop the two by four guy from swinging at you?

Wow. I've heard of people who were dicks, but never people who were such dicks that it overrode their sense of self preservation.

[Alastar]

Not to mention wizards get very irrate if you wake em, so it might not be the safest code of conduct.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

It isn't that difficult to barricade off your room.

Secret doors in the WLD pivot on the vertical axis, so all you have to do is hammer a couple of pitons (standard adventuring gear part 23) through a bar, and you can lock it from the inside.

[Kaelik]

It isn't that difficult to barricade off your room.

Secret doors in the WLD pivot on the vertical axis, so all you have to do is hammer a couple of pitons (standard adventuring gear part 23) through a bar, and you can lock it from the inside.

Exactly. I even said that after only 3 encounters not counting traps, we found a room with only two entrances, both secret doors. We barred both doors to rest and ranged out to explore. After a great deal of that. We later took a rest in various other rooms, like the one with one entrance and a fort, or the one with one entrance with a color spray trap at the entrance, and one that's a door jammed shut. It's not hard to avoid fights when anyone who wants to attack you has to start by being color sprayed at level 1. If the DM was dumb enough to have monsters of the random encounter chart attack us he would just be giving us free XP. Since we'd effectively have a Wizard with infinite castings of Color Spray.

[bayar]

Lol, coup de gras the sleeping guy hoping for a quick kill while triggering AOO's from the other dudes. :/

[Kaelik]

Lol, coup de gras the sleeping guy hoping for a quick kill while triggering AOO's from the other dudes. :/

Not sure what you mean.

This was a level 1 area, and for almost all of level 1 the DM actually used the random encounter chart.

And while half the chart was nothing happens, and a fourth of it was "HP damage, no save" the ones that were actual monsters were Darkmantles and Swarms, which I'm pretty sure are still subject to patterns, and they only came in ones.

Of course, I don't think you can coup de grace a swarm, but it doesn't matter because you don't need to coup de grace when they are unconscious for 2d4 rounds followed by stunned for 2d4 rounds.

Even if more than one Darkmantle came, or some orcs or something, you still have a 15ft cone going off, so it's not like they can actually be withing range to AoO you without also being in the Color Spray.

[Negative Zero]

Lol, coup de gras the sleeping guy hoping for a quick kill while triggering AOO's from the other dudes. :/

Not sure what you mean.

This was a level 1 area, and for almost all of level 1 the DM actually used the random encounter chart.

And while half the chart was nothing happens, and a fourth of it was "HP damage, no save" the ones that were actual monsters were Darkmantles and Swarms, which I'm pretty sure are still subject to patterns, and they only came in ones.

Of course, I don't think you can coup de grace a swarm, but it doesn't matter because you don't need to coup de grace when they are unconscious for 2d4 rounds followed by stunned for 2d4 rounds.

Even if more than one Darkmantle came, or some orcs or something, you still have a 15ft cone going off, so it's not like they can actually be withing range to AoO you without also being in the Color Spray.

Bayar was talking about PBMC's ridiculous suggestion that a monster who was being attacked by a druid would randomly decide to go attack the wizard sleeping in the corner.

[Kaelik]

Bayar was talking about PBMC's ridiculous suggestion that a monster who was being attacked by a druid would randomly decide to go attack the wizard sleeping in the corner.

Ah yes. Sorry, I'm repressing memories of that statement being made in seriousness. I want to keep some hope for humanity.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Bayar was talking about PBMC's ridiculous suggestion that a monster who was being attacked by a druid would randomly decide to go attack the wizard sleeping in the corner.

Ah yes. Sorry, I'm repressing memories of that statement being made in seriousness. I want to keep some hope for humanity.

Good luck with that one

[Shadowhunter]

Usually, you don't cast enough spells that require the same type of material component that you find yourself lacking them. I haven't. You can just shop for supplies next time you're in a town. Usually, you don't need to think about mending your boots, or patching your coat, or even taking a shit. Not many DM's focus on details to the point where these things needs to be considered.

And once again, the rules tell me that I can carry two years supply of all my material components, and in fact, 3 or 4 years, and in fact, thousands of years worth of supplies in a spell component pouch. When you need like one grain of sand to cast a spell, it's surprisingly easy to keep sand handy. I've been on 3 year journey's through the planes with no stop to pick up cobwebs, And I still had cobwebs in my bag. Again, I killed a Wizard after leveling once. Seriously once. Not running out, like ever.´

Lets call it a personal preference then , because I personally don't think it makes sense that it includes infinite spell components even though the RAW supports it. I'm not arguing from a RAW standpoint here, I'm reflecting on how the rules should mirror the in-game reality, not the other way around.

Because the PCs are going to be underground for about 2 game years, with no way of returning to the surface, it's difficult for wizards fo justify spells "appearing" in their spellbooks. Sorcerers, druids, and clerics all draw their power from a less tangible source, but a wizard has no new sources of magic.

It boils down to how you like to interpretate the in-game procedure (purely rp-wise) of how a wizard gets more spells.
By RAW it's no problem, but by RAW you heal damage when drowning if you're at lower than -1 Hp when it happens.
See my point?

It boils down to someone having to try very hard to make up some crazy reason why Wizards can't cast spells in a dungeon. You get fewer scrolls and no access to the Arcane Library. That's fine. But when a Wizard levels up they don't get spells from a scroll or an arcane library or reading books or playing chess or carefully dissecting newts. They get spells from natural learning of arcane power.

Your point is bullshit. Your point is that the since there is a single completely unrelated issue in which the rules don't dictate what you think should happen, therefore, all bets are off, and you should completely ignore the actual rules and the actual way that Wizards get spells and make up whatever shit you want.

The heaps of shit aside, I think one should consider what the rules are trying to reflect and if it makes more sense, modify them.
You seem to be under the impression that I'm saying "This is how it is going to be, since I think it is so. Wizards get nerfed." when what I'm trying to say is "This would be a reasonable situation, given the circumstances. But it's alright, there's ways to fix it (full spellbook/more scroll* drops that becomes spells for free) that the wizard loose no real power in comparison to a normal campaign."


By the rules, Wizard gains new spells. Not arguing against that.
Wizards should get new spells, even in WLD. Not arguing against that.

But when a Wizard levels up they don't get spells from a scroll or an arcane library or reading books or playing chess or carefully dissecting newts. They get spells from natural learning of arcane power.

Correct me if I'm wrong by all means, but there are no actual rules on how they learn them, are they?
Just that they do.
Then it becomes a personal interpretation exactly how the Wizard learns his spells.

Personally, I say that Wizards needs downtime and access to studying material if they are going to add new spells to their spellbook that wasn't there before.
The authors of WLD seem to have the same oppinion.
Letting this stop Wizards from gaining spells, is retarded.
Preventing one roleplaying option (inscribing new text into your book that you didn't had before and have had no time to actually read and understand before adding it) but leaving others, that in the end have the same game effects (Wizard gains their spells) is no big deal.

If it makes more sense from the roleplaying point of veiw and the game mechanics stays almost exactly (full spellbook)/stays exactly the same (scroll* drop), there's no problem right?



*Scrolls as in scrolls you scribble into your spellbook without a cost, just to simulate the aquisition of new spells.


OTHER THOUGHTS:

There are going to be options that allow you to sleep if you just think. That's it.
While the book says that some areas will have the DM roll for Random Encounters every hour, every 30 or even every 6 minutes, the same page says:

While it's important to challenge the PCs every once in a while, it's more important to engage them on a level that doesn't leave them hobbling away from every fight. No matter what the dice say, spread out random encounters so that the PCs aren't waking up every morning with knives at their throats.

That Druids can't commune with nature is ridicioulus. That they can't do much is... yeah.

Lower XP rating makes sense, if for no other reason but to make it a challenge.
And how much more can you learn from slaying you umptenth orc anyway?


Alastar, consider yourself praised for your modification and attitude

[Kaelik]

Correct me if I'm wrong by all means, but there are no actual rules on how they learn them, are they?
Just that they do.
Then it becomes a personal interpretation exactly how the Wizard learns his spells.

Personally, I say that Wizards needs downtime and access to studying material if they are going to add new spells to their spellbook that wasn't there before.

Correct me if I'm wrong by all means, but there are no actual rules on how Barbarians get their rage, are there?
Just that they do.
Then it becomes a personal interpretation exactly how the Barbarian gets his rage.

Personally, I say that Barbarians needs downtime and access to 72 goats and 46 quarts of ale if they are going to rage more times than they could before.

My parody is effortless because your argument is so bad. Your claim that they require study materials is exactly opposite to the implied method of gaining spells in the PHB.

But even if it wasn't. When the rules don't tell you how someone gets a new ability, the correct response is not to make something up. Just like when the history book doesn't tell you how many people died in a battle, making up the answer is not a good idea.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Correct me if I'm wrong by all means, but there are no actual rules on how Barbarians get their rage, are there?
Just that they do.
Then it becomes a personal interpretation exactly how the Barbarian gets his rage.

Personally, I say that Barbarians needs downtime and access to 72 goats and 46 quarts of ale if they are going to rage more times than they could before.

MUNCHKIN!

Everyone knows that Conan gambled, drunk, and wenched away all his money over the course of a week after each adventure!  So that's the requirement for Barbarian advancement in my campaign.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Let's not put words in anyone's mouth.

JaronK

You gain a +2 circumstance bonus with all other Fairness elementals  

... your bullshit totally wrong .... your bullshit .... you don't know what the words mean... you probably have no business sending 24 of them a day at the party... Wow. I've heard of people who were dicks, but ...

Yeah... I'm not reading that. The real Caelic would simply be more tasteful, not to mention provide useful information to the thread. It's not that I don't have reasons for responding, but you won't be helpful even if I do  

It isn't that difficult to barricade off your room.

Secret doors in the WLD pivot on the vertical axis, so all you have to do is hammer a couple of pitons (standard adventuring gear part 23) through a bar, and you can lock it from the inside.

Ooo very nice answer. This might save interruptions of the violent kind. Add a blindfold and some earplugs?

Since I haven't read the adventure's playing secrets (I thought I'd give it a try as a player) I did not know this.

Correct me if I'm wrong by all means, but there are no actual rules on how Barbarians get their rage, are there?
Just that they do.
Then it becomes a personal interpretation exactly how the Barbarian gets his rage.

Personally, I say that Barbarians needs downtime and access to 72 goats and 46 quarts of ale if they are going to rage more times than they could before.

MUNCHKIN!

Everyone knows that Conan gambled, drunk, and wenched away all his money over the course of a week after each adventure!  So that's the requirement for Barbarian advancement in my campaign.

I lol'ed. I don't have a problem with the automatic 2 per spell level - though the authors did hint that this might still not be available.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well, once you find a few secret doors, you start to notice a pattern...

[Alastar]

Let'S not forget that the WLD has several rooms per area that are considered ''safe''  (it's in the room description).  Whenever my players bed down in there to rest, i just inform them they are in a safe room.  It's like a save point in Final Fantasy.

Safe rooms have 1 encounter per rest time, or none, so they're pretty cool

[Kaelik]

Yeah... I'm not reading that. The real Caelic would simply be more tasteful, not to mention provide useful information to the thread. It's not that I don't have reasons for responding, but you won't be helpful even if I do

So in other words, You are completely wrong and you are hiding behind not liking evil cussing to avoid having to address anything.

You know what. Fuck you. There is no real Caelic. Nor am I a fake Caelic. I am Kaelik. That has been my fuckin name since before he thought up the Name Caelic, unless Caelic is also his actual name and he is older than me.