WLD: Most balanced campaign?

[Midnight_v]

If I wanted to make an endurance run or felt like playing down to the dungeon (because let's face it, past level 7ish, you'd be raping the poor dungeon with a good Tier 1 party and it wouldn't be too nice before that) DFA/Crusader/Artificer (homunculus in my pocket)/Druid would be nice. Artificer could make two eternal wands of restoration (as level 1 spells) if your DM really wanted to complain about sleep.

I respectfully disagree.

You can only go around being tier 1 for so long before taking a wrong turn and ending up facing a tier 1 with more spells than you.

For example.  The party that runs throught the place has 3 tier 1 in it.  a wizard necromancer, a wizard conjurer, and an artificier.  The conjurer doubles as a gish.  They go into a room, and trigger the confusion effects of the room.  The two wizards fail their will save.  The gish kills the necromancer.  The necromancer rerolls a monk shadow sun ninja, he is now tier 3.  He has infinite healing and scouting.  It is much appreciated as they lacked that.

Later on, they take a wrong turn at level 10, they end up in the laboratory of a level 14 drider sorcerer.  He feebleminds them all, and starts doing experiments on them.  In the scenario where your four little tier 1 took that wrong turn, they would also have been crushed.  That guy is crazy, and was later joined by a level 12 drider fighter.

Well I have to disagree with you then.
 The first part maybe correct. Yes, of course a mirror match of tier ones or a carefull crafted scenario of tier one moves can indeed kill other tier ones! Still though that just argues tier 1's are better. If you go by the book its not really feasible that its going to happen though.
Further...
I start thinking about the wrong turn scenario...
 

  For example.  The party that runs throught the place has 3 tier 1 in it.  a wizard necromancer, a wizard conjurer, and an artificier.  The conjurer doubles as a gish.  They go into a room, and trigger the confusion effects of the room.  The two wizards fail their will save

Really?  ...Really
That could but its more likely to NOT happen as those are the good saves for that class.

Second. . .
Feeble mind...
Feeblemind targets 1 creature.
This scenario assumes too much.
Win initiative vs the  all 4
Cast feeblemind on one of the 4,
Fails the will save (at  -4)
then the others
What? Kill it. Yeah.
 So then you've crippled them for a level or 2 also... Which put more of a tax on the other 3 members but even at that its likely they'll keep going till they get to heal him or whatever.
Though in the end you just save or died the wizard. Nothing can be done about rocked tag.
.... finally even in the scenario that you have a tier 1 party...
WITH THE GLARING OMMISION OF CODzilla... its raping the dungeon isn't impossible its quite probbable

[Kaelik]

I respectfully disagree.

You can only go around being tier 1 for so long before taking a wrong turn and ending up facing a tier 1 with more spells than you.

For example.  The party that runs throught the place has 3 tier 1 in it.  a wizard necromancer, a wizard conjurer, and an artificier.  The conjurer doubles as a gish.  They go into a room, and trigger the confusion effects of the room.  The two wizards fail their will save.  The gish kills the necromancer.  The necromancer rerolls a monk shadow sun ninja, he is now tier 3.  He has infinite healing and scouting.  It is much appreciated as they lacked that.

Later on, they take a wrong turn at level 10, they end up in the laboratory of a level 14 drider sorcerer.  He feebleminds them all, and starts doing experiments on them.  In the scenario where your four little tier 1 took that wrong turn, they would also have been crushed.  That guy is crazy, and was later joined by a level 12 drider fighter.

You can respectfully disagree all you want, but you are still wrong. It's a published module, so the hypothetical enemies stay the same. So you aren't going to run into more Wizards then you would have. But whatever, let's continue on in your example. Apparently I am going to facing Tier ones because I get confusioned.

Let's see: Druid/Wizard/Cleric: Casters with good will saves and will saves governed by casting stat (Yes I do often take Keen Intellect with my Wizards. As a matter of fact, my level 1 Wizard example is Grey Elf Conjuration Specialist with Keen Intellect, Faerie Mysteries Innate, Obtain Familiar and Abrupt Jaunt).

Also, I assume optimized Tier ones obviously, since anyone can take Wizard and have an Int of 10. And Save optimization is part of optimization. My Core only level 14 Wizard has a will save of +14 my level 8 Cleric has a will save +15, my non Core Wizard and Cleric of level 8 have will saves of +15 and +16. I would not be terribly surprised if I could not fail the save except on a 1, depending on the level I reach it at. The Artificer, who I wouldn't even make into a Stafficer, and who is therefore not much threat, still has a good will progression, but I wouldn't waste a feat on Keen Intellect. Of course, he still has Superior Resistance and a +1 Spellstrike Parrying Dagger just like everyone else.

As for feeblemind from a Drow Sorcerer, seriously, what Midnight said. I have no idea why you think a Fighter or a DFA or Crusader would be better off. Sure Crusader doesn't get -4 for being a caster, but I bet a Cleric has a Wisdom mod at least 4 points higher by level 10, and a Druid probably 6. The way to deal with that situation is to just have good saves and kill the thing in one round, which is pretty much exactly my plan with dual Fleshraker pounces + Wizard Webbing (don't use the actual spell, because it's leet banned, just use one of the eight other ways to do it) the Drow Fighter + Cleric closing for a beatdown with the still living one. Oh yeah, and The Artificer can whip out a Kelpstrand on the fighter.

[Alastar]

I'm not saying ANYONE would have a good time in there.

Where did you read that?

All i'm saying is: this dungeon is harsh, and it can kill you easily, no matter how good you are, or how high tier you are.  Simply cause you took a wrong turn, or failed a save (there are 5 confusion rooms in the halls of flesh).  thinking you can waltz throught the dungeon is wishful thinking.

Also, as a dm, if you optimise, i'll optimise, the bosses are upgraded.

Also, in both your cases of example of level 14 characters, you failed the dc on a 7 or 6, now they met this room when they were level 8.

and lastly: the drider was flying, no one before had ever flown, so they didnt have the proper spells for that moment, i'm confident if they meet again they'll prevail, but at that time, they got feebleminded one after the other, since the meleer's couldnt go to bear, and the ranged characters were feebleminded first.

[Kaelik]

I'm not saying you optimise agaisnt will saves here.

All i'm saying is: this dungeon is harsh, and it can kill you easily, no matter how good you are, or how high tier you are.  Simply cause you took a wrong turn, or failed a save (there are 5 confusion rooms in the halls of flesh).  thinking you can waltz throught the dungeon is wishful thinking.

Also, as a dm, if you optimise, i'll optimise, the bosses are upgraded.

Also, in both your cases of example of level 14 characters, you failed the dc on a 7 or 6, now they met this room when they were level 8.

Yes, both my Core only classes with lower saving throws than level 7 characters. Once again, If it is even possible for any party at all to survive, I will waltz through that dungeon. Because my example party is a set of actual deities. If you were to actually stat Vecna/Obai-Hai/Saint Cuthbert/Boccob that's what they would look like.

Also, I throw small woodland critters into rooms before I enter them.

[Alastar]

It's possible this can be done easily, all i'm saying is: don't assume, in some lvl 10-12 areas, there are cr 18 creatures, accompanied by cr 12 creatures.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Meh, a ghost dread necromancer would have a peachy keen time in there.

[Alastar]

Except... you know... you'd have 12 hp for your first five levels, making you have a 50% chance to die at every trap there is, let's not mention the spellcasters...

[Kaelik]

I was wondering how you even managed to convince your DM to let you have a +4 LA template when everyone else is level 1.

But I'm pretty sure his point is that you spend all your time inside walls. Need something like Travel Devotion though to be able to wall cast while you build up a supply of minions. And to aid the minions later of course.

[Negative Zero]

Presumably he'd just be taking the first level of the Savage Progression.

[Alastar]

Oh damn... there's actually an entry in the area e of WLD that says that the walls of the donjon cannot be penetrated by incorporeal creatures... it's kinda obscure, but they thought about it...

It'S actually more useful then harmful... the shadows and ghosts in there would rape you otherwise...

Also, according to d20srd, it's 5 la.

[Negative Zero]

Once more, just the first level of the Ghost Savage Progression.

[Kaelik]

Taking a look at the actual ghost rules again, they are ethereal and manifest in their current location, so you could actually never enter the WLD as a ghost of any kind.

Also, while the rules may say bullshit about not entering, I'd expect any good DM to throw those out and use the actual creatures that can that way. Just like I expect them to ignore the random "walls are invulnerable and can never be broken" stuff.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Actually, what it says is that you can't exit, not that you can't enter.

Region E is that way because of actively maintained wards, which are not present elsewhere.

[Kaelik]

I've never read the actual rules of the book, I'm just going from what I have heard, which is that the Ethreal and Astral don't exist in that area.

[JaronK]

You can respectfully disagree all you want, but you are still wrong. It's a published module, so the hypothetical enemies stay the same. So you aren't going to run into more Wizards then you would have. But whatever, let's continue on in your example. Apparently I am going to facing Tier ones because I get confusioned.

Let's see: Druid/Wizard/Cleric: Casters with good will saves and will saves governed by casting stat (Yes I do often take Keen Intellect with my Wizards. As a matter of fact, my level 1 Wizard example is Grey Elf Conjuration Specialist with Keen Intellect, Faerie Mysteries Innate, Obtain Familiar and Abrupt Jaunt).

Also, I assume optimized Tier ones obviously, since anyone can take Wizard and have an Int of 10. And Save optimization is part of optimization. My Core only level 14 Wizard has a will save of +14 my level 8 Cleric has a will save +15, my non Core Wizard and Cleric of level 8 have will saves of +15 and +16. I would not be terribly surprised if I could not fail the save except on a 1, depending on the level I reach it at. The Artificer, who I wouldn't even make into a Stafficer, and who is therefore not much threat, still has a good will progression, but I wouldn't waste a feat on Keen Intellect. Of course, he still has Superior Resistance and a +1 Spellstrike Parrying Dagger just like everyone else.

Actually, none of that will help you like you think.  WLD is pretty Gygaxian... one of the first nasty traps my party hit was one where if you failed your save, you would be confused every time you entered combat for the next 30-wisdom days... and if you made your save, you just knew that something bad had happened, but the effect was the same.

So save optimization wouldn't help here at all.  Some effects in there get a bit arbitrary, and having a pumped up save won't help you at all.  With that said, I've thought about using a Dread Necromancer with a skeleton that's used entirely to test traps.  That might help.  But saves won't.

JaronK

[Kaelik]

You can respectfully disagree all you want, but you are still wrong. It's a published module, so the hypothetical enemies stay the same. So you aren't going to run into more Wizards then you would have. But whatever, let's continue on in your example. Apparently I am going to facing Tier ones because I get confusioned.

Let's see: Druid/Wizard/Cleric: Casters with good will saves and will saves governed by casting stat (Yes I do often take Keen Intellect with my Wizards. As a matter of fact, my level 1 Wizard example is Grey Elf Conjuration Specialist with Keen Intellect, Faerie Mysteries Innate, Obtain Familiar and Abrupt Jaunt).

Also, I assume optimized Tier ones obviously, since anyone can take Wizard and have an Int of 10. And Save optimization is part of optimization. My Core only level 14 Wizard has a will save of +14 my level 8 Cleric has a will save +15, my non Core Wizard and Cleric of level 8 have will saves of +15 and +16. I would not be terribly surprised if I could not fail the save except on a 1, depending on the level I reach it at. The Artificer, who I wouldn't even make into a Stafficer, and who is therefore not much threat, still has a good will progression, but I wouldn't waste a feat on Keen Intellect. Of course, he still has Superior Resistance and a +1 Spellstrike Parrying Dagger just like everyone else.

Actually, none of that will help you like you think.  WLD is pretty Gygaxian... one of the first nasty traps my party hit was one where if you failed your save, you would be confused every time you entered combat for the next 30-wisdom days... and if you made your save, you just knew that something bad had happened, but the effect was the same.

So save optimization wouldn't help here at all.  Some effects in there get a bit arbitrary, and having a pumped up save won't help you at all.  With that said, I've thought about using a Dread Necromancer with a skeleton that's used entirely to test traps.  That might help.  But saves won't.

A) how could that be the first trap? We ran into 3 traps before the game died at level 2, and that sound like something they'd save for the level 4-6 section of the dungeon.

B) I was mostly talking about the Drider, but as for the traps, I addressed that with:

Also, I throw small woodland critters into rooms before I enter them.

It's an also, because high saves are often all you need, but it's better when you don't roll.

Also, I'm confused at how they managed to get the trap to hit the whole party, because we know the rule is that you always stay way the heck away from your trap tripper/whoevers entering an empty room opening a door.

[Alastar]

the trap jaronk is talking about is not actually a trap, more of a curse, it happens whenever you fool around with a big throne in the middle of an empty room.

IT'S A THRONE

IN THE MIDDLE OF A ROOM

OF COURSE YOU FOOL AROUND WITH IT!!!

there is no search check, no disable device, it just happens if your not evil and touch it, save to see that something is wrong.  Throwing a critter at it will not do anything to indicate a trap.  Also, where do you get the critters?  If you say bag of tricks, remember that your level 1

Happily, one in my party made his save, and they decided to just take a 2 weeks break in a safe room they had rearranged a bit earlier.

The confusion room isnt a trap also, it's a room with a permanent confusion effect cast on it, once again, no search dc, no disable device, there are 3 of those rooms in the halls of flesh, a 7-9 area.   The rat, squirrel or other would have mostly wandered aimleslly in the room, witch is pretty normal for a critter, it would have been hard to know.  Even if he HAD attacked you, what then?  You threw him!! He's not gonna like you!

That's not to mention the creatures with the (sp) ability: unkillable: this creature cannot be killed.

Or the plants with a acid and blunt damage only bypassable regeneration, with a grapple check of +34 when your level 7-9

WLD is one tough son of a bitch, is all we're saying

[Kaelik]

the trap jaronk is talking about is not actually a trap, more of a curse, it happens whenever you fool around with a big throne in the middle of an empty room.

IT'S A THRONE

IN THE MIDDLE OF A ROOM

OF COURSE YOU FOOL AROUND WITH IT!!!

there is no search check, no disable device, it just happens if your not evil and touch it, save to see that something is wrong.  Throwing a critter at it will not do anything to indicate a trap.  Also, where do you get the critters?  If you say bag of tricks, remember that your level 1

1) Um, no, not level 1. I leveled to level 2 in game where we got 1/3rd standard XP which the DM admitted is less than even the most conservative of the suggested houserules. We never ran into any throne room, and we were almost certainly forever away from this imaginary throne, because we were leveling on EL 4-6 encounters.

2) It's a Throne! In the Middle of a Room! Of course I'm not going to touch the damn thing! Also, do your characters not all wear gloves? Gloves man, gloves! Everyone knows about the DMG having a CR 1 trap with contact poison on a door.

3) Most of my party and characters are usually evil. But whatever.

4) Druid!

Happily, one in my party made his save, and they decided to just take a 2 weeks break in a safe room they had rearranged a bit earlier.

Did you just admit there are places you can rest and not get attacked? PlzBreakMyFace is going to have to yell at you now.

The confusion room isnt a trap also, it's a room with a permanent confusion effect cast on it, once again, no search dc, no disable device, there are 3 of those rooms in the halls of flesh, a 7-9 area.   The rat, squirrel or other would have mostly wandered aimleslly in the room, witch is pretty normal for a critter, it would have been hard to know.  Even if he HAD attacked you, what then?  You threw him!! He's not gonna like you!

Okay, so, the room is confused? I don't care. People can cast confusion on any room they want. (Well, they can't because the target is a creature, but whatever.) Also, see Druid. If the rat doesn't obey our commands to scout, we know something is wrong.

That's not to mention the creatures with the (sp) ability: unkillable: this creature cannot be killed.

A Spell Like Ability? What's the duration on that? I'm pretty sure we can win Init and kill them before they can get it off.

Or the plants with a acid and blunt damage only bypassable regeneration, with a grapple check of +34 when your level 7-9

Unless that regeneration is regeneration 25 or something, not terribly worried. Also, I rock a Cleric and a Druid, half my damage is blunt anyway.

WLD is one tough son of a bitch, is all we're saying.

Right, and all I'm saying is that no one has ever explained to me why this "super difficult" dungeon is harder for Wizards than Fighters. Like most things in D&D, when something is hard, it's harder for shitty characters. Wizards have Spellcraft DCs that tell them about imaginary confusion rooms, deal with unkillable monsters better, are smart and don't touch thrones but have awesome knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft checks, better saves in general, but will in particular. Also, by the time my Wizard hit's level 3 he'll be immune to mind affecting crap, and while I'm sure that the bullshit rules don't label their curse as mind affecting, I don't care.

I will make a statement right now. The WLD is far easier for a Tier 1 party than a Tier 3 party. The difference between Tier 1s and 3s is greater than during normal D&D play.

[JaronK]

1) Um, no, not level 1. I leveled to level 2 in game where we got 1/3rd standard XP which the DM admitted is less than even the most conservative of the suggested houserules. We never ran into any throne room, and we were almost certainly forever away from this imaginary throne, because we were leveling on EL 4-6 encounters.

Yes, level 1.  We played an optimized group, so I had a DMM Cleric with Persistant Detect Secret Doors.  As such, we went through every secret door, generally going right or straight ahead where we could.  The room was roughly in the middle of the dungeon, first floor, and it's pretty easy to get there before doing almost anything else.  In fact, we had only two fights before finding it (the Orcs at the beginning, and a few Darkmantles).  We didn't fight the Kobolds because our entire party was in fact a bunch of dragons.

Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it's made up.

2) It's a Throne! In the Middle of a Room! Of course I'm not going to touch the damn thing! Also, do your characters not all wear gloves? Gloves man, gloves! Everyone knows about the DMG having a CR 1 trap with contact poison on a door.

Gloves don't help.  The throne has some shiny gem looking things on it, so two of our people tried to take them.  Instacurse.  But no, you can't wear gloves or anything... it's all quite arbitrary.  Remember that magic just has to target you and what you're wearing to effect you.

3) Most of my party and characters are usually evil. But whatever.

We're all lawful or nuetral good, at least in this party.

And again, critters are harder to deal with, even if you're a druid.  Would you plan on having your animal companion get confused, or were you going to try to use Summon Nature's Ally (a bad idea for obvious reasons to those who have played in this dungeon).  So no, you can't easily throw a critter at it (of course, we had no Druids, but we do have in the party a DMM Cleric as mentioned, as well as a Loredrake Sorcerer).

This dungeon DOES skew things more towards the lower tier classes, mostly because so much of it is arbitrary.  Saying "no rope trick, summoning is messed up, no phasing through walls, etc" doesn't hurt Fighters who can't do any of that stuff.  I'm not saying it suddenly makes Fighter uber or anything like that, just that most of the special tricks that Tier 1s use are arbitrarily nerfed, and a lot of things simply happen with no save or DC to stop them, meaning the usual Wizard type abilities that protect you do nothing.  As such, you're just very restricted towards "run up and smack it in the face and hope the trap doesn't kill you" as a playstyle, which loses a lot of Tier 1 strengths.  Classic Gygaxian DMing there.  The Tier 1s are still quite strong, but they're hit harder by the special rules than classic melees (though I personally think Rogues are screwed even more, as the lack of chosable loot really hurts them and many of the traps, such as the throne, ignore trapfinding anyway).

Really I'd say classic melees are hurt the least by the special rules there, though it still doesn't make them stronger than the really strong casters.  It just closes the gap a bit.

JaronK

[Kaelik]

Yes, level 1.  We played an optimized group, so I had a DMM Cleric with Persistant Detect Secret Doors.  As such, we went through every secret door, generally going right or straight ahead where we could.  The room was roughly in the middle of the dungeon, first floor, and it's pretty easy to get there before doing almost anything else.  In fact, we had only two fights before finding it (the Orcs at the beginning, and a few Darkmantles).  We didn't fight the Kobolds because our entire party was in fact a bunch of dragons.

We also went right through a bunch of secret doors, but we were no where near this throne, because the middle of the dungeon, is very far from the right edge. We did go up and kill everything up to the Ogre before reverting back, because we treated all secret doors that led to new sections of the dungeon instead of single rooms as walls until we found someplace we didn't want to go.

Also, we fought the Kobolds as a party of Dragons, including me, breathing fire at them in their fort. Yeah. I virtually pulled out my copy of Races of the Dragon and began reading the Kobold stuff to him.

Gloves don't help.  The throne has some shiny gem looking things on it, so two of our people tried to take them.  Instacurse.  But no, you can't wear gloves or anything... it's all quite arbitrary.  Remember that magic just has to target you and what you're wearing to effect you.

Yes it is all very arbitrary, but yet, there is nothing that makes it worse for good characters, and much that makes it better, like potential immunity to mind affecting.

And again, critters are harder to deal with, even if you're a druid.  Would you plan on having your animal companion get confused, or were you going to try to use Summon Nature's Ally (a bad idea for obvious reasons to those who have played in this dungeon).  So no, you can't easily throw a critter at it (of course, we had no Druids, but we do have in the party a DMM Cleric as mentioned, as well as a Loredrake Sorcerer).

Well, depending on the houserule, summon a Badger and then confine the Angry Badger. But yeah. I was just referring to Rats being handle animaled.

This dungeon DOES skew things more towards the lower tier classes, mostly because so much of it is arbitrary.  Saying "no rope trick, summoning is messed up, no phasing through walls, etc" doesn't hurt Fighters who can't do any of that stuff.  I'm not saying it suddenly makes Fighter uber or anything like that, just that most of the special tricks that Tier 1s use are arbitrarily nerfed, and a lot of things simply happen with no save or DC to stop them, meaning the usual Wizard type abilities that protect you do nothing.  As such, you're just very restricted towards "run up and smack it in the face and hope the trap doesn't kill you" as a playstyle, which loses a lot of Tier 1 strengths.  Classic Gygaxian DMing there.  The Tier 1s are still quite strong, but they're hit harder by the special rules than classic melees (though I personally think Rogues are screwed even more, as the lack of chosable loot really hurts them and many of the traps, such as the throne, ignore trapfinding anyway).

There is nothing in that explaining how smacking in the face worse is better, or how this magically deprives Wizards of the ability to cast spells that are just plane better than face smacking. I've played tonnes of games with no summoning or Rope Tricking and I still remember Wizards winning at combat better than Fighters.