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Author Topic: Wisdom for Wizards  (Read 6629 times)
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Mister D
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« on: May 31, 2008, 01:24:02 PM »

So what do you say, how much is Wisdom worth for a controller wizard with an orb implement? Asm much as intelligence? Almost as much? Is Int 17,Wis 16 reasonable or is it giving too much importance to a secondary stat?
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Dan2
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« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2008, 04:18:27 PM »

The wisdom bonus for Wizards is nice, but I'd still try to get your Int as high as possible first.  Wizards don't get weapon proficiency bonuses to attack rolls, so it could end up that you have trouble hitting a defense with the wizard.

In the end, it's your call.  Play the wizard how you want to, but I'd recommend keeping Int up if possible.
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« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2008, 05:58:42 PM »

Attack rolls are my real sticking point with Wizards.

In all seriousness, it's better to start with Wand mastery than Orb mastery.  You can get an Eladrin Wizard with stats of S 8, C 11, D 15, I 18, W 16, Ch 10.  This means you get a +6 on the attack you use your Wand on, and have a solid Wisdom score for secondary effects.  You can also make an Elf Wizard that has S 8, C 10, D 16, I 17, W 16, Ch 10 that gets the same bonus on wanded attacks and also benefits from Elven Accuracy and also the Elven Precision feat.
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Dan2
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2008, 09:13:52 PM »

In my limited experience (I just ran a quick campaign today; level 1), early monsters have a couple of nice defenses and one the sits around 13.  With the Wizard, you should probably be able to pick a few powers that attack different defenses.

If you can pick out their weak defense, hitting isn't a real issue (reminder: I don't know about higher levels).  The Wand Mastery doesn't really seem to do me a lot of good.
Also, I'm incredibly biased toward the Orb Mastery (and Spellstorm Mage for that matter...).

Picking up the Wand mastery ASAP in Paragon is definitely a good call; a great call even.  But I'm much more enticed by trying to win the low levels with control.  (and by crushing their saving throws.)

Wand Mastery is truly a viable option (and may turn out to be better in the long optimization run), but I prefer the Orb.
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2008, 11:30:51 PM »

You need to hit first before the enemy even needs to make a saving throw, so I prefer taking Orb mastery at the Paragon tier.
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brislove
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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2008, 02:16:43 AM »

It all depends really, you want orb at some point. I like capping int, because +1 all the time is better than +2 1/encounter. The save debuffing isn't as big of a deal until later, but extending the effects of some spells (like icy terrain) is still powerful.

I have to admit I like human orb wizard because of the at-wills, monster HP scales faster then PC damage, you will be using those suckers. it's nice to have a lot of them. I want ray of frost, thunderblast, and scorching burst, so I built human. If I was willing to give one of those up I would go eladrin, and start with wand mastery, grabbing orb in paragon tier after my wisdom is buffed a bit.

Really the orb mastery's save debuff isn't optimal before it's stacking with spell focus IMO, i would rather just have an effect stick one round longer when I know it's going to, than increase the chance it sticks from 45% to 55%.

The point of orb's save debuff is to make the effect NOT get saved for a few rounds, so if unles ge you the debuff so they are saving on a 15 or more, it's probably not better then just making them stunned/dazed/immobilized for an extra round.
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Treantmonklvl20
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2008, 05:15:40 PM »

My first impression is that Int is still your most important stat, but Wis is a close second.  Hit first, enhance the hit second.
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Catharz Godfoot
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2008, 08:27:33 PM »

Orb mastery and Sleep make a high wisdom very effective at low levels.
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Squirrelloid
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2008, 04:53:55 AM »

The most important things to consider about Wisdom vs. Intelligence for a wizard

(1) you will be pbing 16 16 for both stats if you plan on going orb at some point and you will be pumping both of them every chance you get - the difference between them will only be racial pump.  Thus, 'favoring wisdom' is only a +1 hit on intelligence mod.

(2) Choosing to pump intelligence with race is choosing power now vs. power later.  Increasing wisdom has nonlinear effects on cumulative save probabilities which strongly favor high wisdom, meaning that at high levels after all your level pumps and Spell Focus having chosen to start with a wisdom race will be a lot more significant than choosing to start with an intelligence race.  At low levels you may prefer the intelligence, but you'll lose out at high levels.

(3) Elf makes up for the difference in to-hit and then some on the attack that really matters.

(4) Effectively removing an enemy from combat causes a dramatic shift in the battle.  The longer you expect to keep that enemy neutralized, the more likely the party will wipe the rest of the combatants and get to deal with it all alone.  Ie, we're talking a 1-combat event, but its a high impact event.

Now, if you want to play something other than a control mage, sure, wisdom isn't as important. 
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Treantmonklvl20
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2008, 08:54:19 PM »

I have some disagreements with your logic:

Quote
you will be pbing 16 16 for both stats if you plan on going orb at some point and you will be pumping both of them every chance you get - the difference between them will only be racial pump.  Thus, 'favoring wisdom' is only a +1 hit on intelligence mod.

and vise-versa if you favor Int

Quote
Choosing to pump intelligence with race is choosing power now vs. power later.  Increasing wisdom has nonlinear effects on cumulative save probabilities which strongly favor high wisdom, meaning that at high levels after all your level pumps and Spell Focus having chosen to start with a wisdom race will be a lot more significant than choosing to start with an intelligence race.

I saw your % tables in your handbook responses - they did not take into account chance to hit.  In fact, if memory serves - you suggested a 50/50 chance to hit with a 16 INT against a creatures weakest defence (which you said you would know with knowledges).

First off - if you miss - all the minuses to saves in the world are useless

Secondly - 50/50 sucks.

Thirdly - with a 16 Int (assuming you raise at every opportunity) your chance of succeeding in "knowing vulnerabilities" check of an opposing creature depends on level - but averages below 50% on a 30 level advancement.

Quote
At low levels you may prefer the intelligence, but you'll lose out at high levels.

I see no reason why hitting will be any less important at high levels.

Quote
Effectively removing an enemy from combat causes a dramatic shift in the battle.  The longer you expect to keep that enemy neutralized, the more likely the party will wipe the rest of the combatants and get to deal with it all alone.  Ie, we're talking a 1-combat event, but its a high impact event.

Here's the big error in your logic IMO.  It falls under the same category as "The elf using elven accuracy hits on the important roll"

As you mention - we need to consider down the line.

I realize at level 1 the wizard is using sleep - and targeting one enemy.  If you use elven accuracy to hit and then Orb Impliment to make the enemy fail his save repeatedly - you have surpassed the Int based wizard.

However - as levels increase - so do the spells.  Suddenly you are targeting more and more opponents with the same spell.  Some of the rays target 3 enemies - some bursts are 24 squares covered even at mid levels.  You may even target every enemy.

The Int bonus will grant you a +1 to hit on every roll - so if you target 5 enemies - you will be making 5 rolls.  The Wis/Orb/Elf wizard can use elven accuracy on one of 5 rolls, they can use orb implement on one creature afterwards.

Therefore, I think Int pays off in spades at higher levels compared to Wisdom, save penalties, and elven accuracy - because of quantity of attack rolls.

Not that I'm suggesting you shouldn't optimize your opponents save DC's.  I just think that hitting is job #1.  The more enemies you hit on your first action - the more are out of action in round 1.  The more that will need to make saves in the second round, and the third - etc.  Your percentages to keep one of them affected may be lower - but you have a bigger pool of opponents making those saving throws.  It alters the math in a way you never took into account in your example.  Your example assumed one enemy - you are continually assuming one enemy.

Taking out one enemy - that's the Warlock's job.  This is a wizard we are talking about...
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 09:33:00 PM by Treantmonklvl20 » Logged

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Dan2
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2008, 09:34:35 PM »

I have some disagreements with your logic:

stuff...

+1

Also, why do you always have to be better at saying the things I want to say TM?
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Treantmonklvl20
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2008, 09:37:53 PM »

I have some disagreements with your logic:

stuff...

+1

Also, why do you always have to be better at saying the things I want to say TM?

Really?  We always seem to be in the same place at the same time Dan2  Wink

I'm better at saying things because when it comes to disagreeing with people - I have lots of practice  Smirk
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Squirrelloid
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2008, 10:29:13 PM »

I have some disagreements with your logic:

Quote
you will be pbing 16 16 for both stats if you plan on going orb at some point and you will be pumping both of them every chance you get - the difference between them will only be racial pump.  Thus, 'favoring wisdom' is only a +1 hit on intelligence mod.

and vise-versa if you favor Int

True, that's why the linearity of one vs. the non-linearity of the other is the deciding factor in my mind.

Quote
Quote
Choosing to pump intelligence with race is choosing power now vs. power later.  Increasing wisdom has nonlinear effects on cumulative save probabilities which strongly favor high wisdom, meaning that at high levels after all your level pumps and Spell Focus having chosen to start with a wisdom race will be a lot more significant than choosing to start with an intelligence race.

I saw your % tables in your handbook responses - they did not take into account chance to hit.  In fact, if memory serves - you suggested a 50/50 chance to hit with a 16 INT against a creatures weakest defence (which you said you would know with knowledges).

First off - if you miss - all the minuses to saves in the world are useless

Secondly - 50/50 sucks.

Thirdly - with a 16 Int (assuming you raise at every opportunity) your chance of succeeding in "knowing vulnerabilities" check of an opposing creature depends on level - but averages below 50% on a 30 level advancement.

The key here is you get to choose to activate the orb *after* you hit.  There's no chance of it missing - its a guaranteed effect.  So they don't have to take into account chance to hit so long as you can land something.  (Also, the elven accuracy power can be used once every encounter in response to missing, which means you're vastly more of the time than that +1 from a higher intelligence would give you, even without the feat that boosts elven accuracy).

And skill focus isn't a bad feat anymore - especially since by level 30 you'll have something like 5 feats you won't know what to do with.

You may also have noted many knowledges are wisdom based instead of intelligence based.  (Nature and Dungeoneering for instance)  So intelligence and Wisdom will be needed to cover all creature types.

Quote
Quote
At low levels you may prefer the intelligence, but you'll lose out at high levels.

I see no reason why hitting will be any less important at high levels.

Equally important vs. increasing importance of the +1 wisdom difference.  The value of wisdom grows as x^n, the value of intelligence grows as x.  I know which trend I'm interested in following for bigger effect. 

Edit: Actually, i'm not even sure the value of intelligence grows - it stays constant.  That's another difference - saves are on a constant scale and thus every increase in wisdom is an improvement against a static target.  Defenses increase with monster level and keep pace with your expected magic items and stat pumps, so being 1 ahead for intelligence is as good at 30th level as at 1st level.  Being 1 ahead in wisdom is huge at 30th level.

Quote
Effectively removing an enemy from combat causes a dramatic shift in the battle.  The longer you expect to keep that enemy neutralized, the more likely the party will wipe the rest of the combatants and get to deal with it all alone.  Ie, we're talking a 1-combat event, but its a high impact event.

Here's the big error in your logic IMO.  It falls under the same category as "The elf using elven accuracy hits on the important roll"

As you mention - we need to consider down the line.

I realize at level 1 the wizard is using sleep - and targeting one enemy.  If you use elven accuracy to hit and then Orb Impliment to make the enemy fail his save repeatedly - you have surpassed the Int based wizard.

However - as levels increase - so do the spells.  Suddenly you are targeting more and more opponents with the same spell.  Some of the rays target 3 enemies - some bursts are 24 squares covered even at mid levels.  You may even target every enemy.

The Int bonus will grant you a +1 to hit on every roll - so if you target 5 enemies - you will be making 5 rolls.  The Wis/Orb/Elf wizard can use elven accuracy on one of 5 rolls, they can use orb implement on one creature afterwards.

Therefore, I think Int pays off in spades at higher levels compared to Wisdom, save penalties, and elven accuracy - because of quantity of attack rolls.

Not that I'm suggesting you shouldn't optimize your opponents save DC's.  I just think that hitting is job #1.  The more enemies you hit on your first action - the more are out of action in round 1.  The more that will need to make saves in the second round, and the third - etc.  Your percentages to keep one of them affected may be lower - but you have a bigger pool of opponents making those saving throws.  It alters the math in a way you never took into account in your example.  Your example assumed one enemy - you are continually assuming one enemy.

Taking out one enemy - that's the Warlock's job.  This is a wizard we are talking about...
[/quote]

Sleep targets multiple enemies too.

The important thing about multi-targetting is that the difference in intelligence does not come up in every roll.  It only comes up 5% of the time, because there are two results we care about - hit and miss - and only on 5% of rolls does the difference in intelligence lead to a difference in result.

So if i roll against 5 targets with defense 11 greater than my attack modifier, and roll 2,15,7,10,19, and then consider if i had that extra +1 from intelligence (so i need a 10 instead of an 11), that's only a difference of result on one of those targets in that example, and if I rolled no 10 then it didn't even matter.

So saying the intelligence matters on every attack roll is provably wrong.  It matters on 5% of attack rolls.  Its those 5% of attack rolls we care about, and elven accuracy completely outweighs it.  Because chances are we roll a '10' (in a situation as the example above) 1 time or fewer on average in an encounter, assuming we make on the order of 20 attack rolls or fewer.  (And if we're making 20 attack rolls per character per combat I'm going to be bored out of my mind).  This means elven accuracy comes up more often than the difference in intelligence on average.

At which point the Elf (and the higher wisdom) are provably more valuable, because Elven Accuracy >> +1 int mod in effect *and* you get the improved returns from wisdom through the orb. 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 10:37:41 PM by Squirrelloid » Logged

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Treantmonklvl20
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2008, 10:44:04 PM »

The important thing about multi-targetting is that the difference in intelligence does not come up in every roll.  It only comes up 5% of the time, because there are two results we care about - hit and miss - and only on 5% of rolls does the difference in intelligence lead to a difference in result.

So if i roll against 5 targets with defense 11 greater than my attack modifier, and roll 2,15,7,10,19, and then consider if i had that extra +1 from intelligence (so i need a 10 instead of an 11), that's only a difference of result on one of those targets in that example, and if I rolled no 10 then it didn't even matter.

So saying the intelligence matters on every attack roll is provably wrong.  It matters on 5% of attack rolls.  Its those 5% of attack rolls we care about, and elven accuracy completely outweighs it.  Because chances are we roll a '10' (in a situation as the example above) 1 time or fewer on average in an encounter, assuming we make on the order of 20 attack rolls or fewer.  (And if we're making 20 attack rolls per character per combat I'm going to be bored out of my mind).  This means elven accuracy comes up more often than the difference in intelligence on average.

At which point the Elf (and the higher wisdom) are provably more valuable, because Elven Accuracy >> +1 int mod in effect *and* you get the improved returns from wisdom through the orb. 

Did I miss something or did your point comparing the +1 Int to the Elven Accuracy assume an auto-hit when using Elven Accuracy?  I'm pretty sure Elven Accuracy gives a reroll - not an auto-hit.

If we assume that the +1 Int will result in turning a miss into a hit "1 time or fewer on average in an encounter" - assuming your example (need an 11 to hit) - then as long as it occurred in at least 51% of battles (which would require an average of 11 attack rolls - when you consider up to 5 per standard action isn't hard to imagine) would it not be better than Elven Accuracy which would only give one extra hit in 50% of battles?

If those number of attack rolls increase - so too will the gap.

I fully expect to need a handful of d20`s in 4e when playing a wizard...20 attacks won`t mean 20 rounds - but in a 5 round battle against 5 enemies I think 20 attacks is possible (especially when considering Action points and such).
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 10:47:04 PM by Treantmonklvl20 » Logged

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Squirrelloid
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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2008, 10:53:34 PM »

The important thing about multi-targetting is that the difference in intelligence does not come up in every roll.  It only comes up 5% of the time, because there are two results we care about - hit and miss - and only on 5% of rolls does the difference in intelligence lead to a difference in result.

So if i roll against 5 targets with defense 11 greater than my attack modifier, and roll 2,15,7,10,19, and then consider if i had that extra +1 from intelligence (so i need a 10 instead of an 11), that's only a difference of result on one of those targets in that example, and if I rolled no 10 then it didn't even matter.

So saying the intelligence matters on every attack roll is provably wrong.  It matters on 5% of attack rolls.  Its those 5% of attack rolls we care about, and elven accuracy completely outweighs it.  Because chances are we roll a '10' (in a situation as the example above) 1 time or fewer on average in an encounter, assuming we make on the order of 20 attack rolls or fewer.  (And if we're making 20 attack rolls per character per combat I'm going to be bored out of my mind).  This means elven accuracy comes up more often than the difference in intelligence on average.

At which point the Elf (and the higher wisdom) are provably more valuable, because Elven Accuracy >> +1 int mod in effect *and* you get the improved returns from wisdom through the orb. 

Did I miss something or did your point comparing the +1 Int to the Elven Accuracy assume an auto-hit when using Elven Accuracy?  I'm pretty sure Elven Accuracy gives a reroll - not an auto-hit.

If we assume that the +1 Int will result in turning a miss into a hit "1 time or fewer on average in an encounter" - assuming your example (need an 11 to hit) - then as long as it occurred in at least 51% of battles (which would require an average of 11 attack rolls - when you consider up to 5 per standard action isn't hard to imagine) would it not be better than Elven Accuracy which would only give one extra hit in 50% of battles?

I'm not assuming you hit, I'm just noting:

(1) you get a re-roll, which you choose *after* you already missed.
(2) with the feat, you get +2 on that re-roll, which is awesome.
(3) Its an encounter power, so it happens *every* encounter.

Since you already know you missed on the first roll, we're talking about turning any miss number into a possible hit.  So it doesn't matter if that miss was a '10' or a '2', you get another chance.  The effective +to hit on average from such a thing is something like +3.5 when rolling for numbers near the average die roll.

We also know it does come up *every* encounter, not just some encounters.

(And we haven't even considered the force multiplication aspects of landing and maintaining an awesome effect like Sleep for unconsciousness - makes it much easier to hit those targets).

If you want to consider the total value of Elven Accuracy vs. +1 int mod, you'd need some measure of (a) how often you hit on average and (b) average number of attacks in a combat.

I've done the analysis for (a), and averaged across the monster manual its never _worse_ than 50-50 for a wizard with a 16 int starting.  So we'll assume he needs 11s to hit and the 18 int starter needs 10s.

Lets consider 5, 10, and 15 attack roll combats.

We'll further assume that no landed status effects improve our ability to hit the enemy.

Expectation: Sum{k=0-n}(k hits * P(k hits))

E(hits|11s + elven accuracy + 5 attacks) = 3.08
E(hits|11s + elven accuracy + 10 attacks) = 5.60
E(hits|11s + elven accuracy + 15 attacks) = 8.10

Note: Assumes the Elven Precision Feat

E(hits|10s + 5 attacks) = 2.75
E(hits|10s + 10 attacks) = 5.50
E(hits|10s + 15 attacks) = 8.25

Will be edited when i do the math.  I need to account for elven accuracy, but it shouldn't be overly difficult - its just a conditional probability.

The math in detail:

Each term for the need 10s is of the form:
(n choose k)*p(k hits)*p(n-k misses)*k, where k is 1-n.  Terms summed = expectation

Each term for need 11s with elven accuracy is of the form
((n choose k)*p(k hits)*p(n-k misses)*p(EAcc att missed) + (n choose k-1)*p(k-1 hits)*p(n-k-1 misses)*p(EAcc att hit))*k

Except for its first term, where there is no need to multiply by p(EAcc att missed) because if you hit 5 times without using EAcc, then you didn't have a chance to miss.

Those for whom some of those terms look like black boxes, this might help: p(R hits) = p(hit)^R, and similar for misses. (Using p(miss) of course).
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 12:14:03 AM by Squirrelloid » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2008, 11:15:36 PM »

(2) with the feat, you get +2 on that re-roll, which is awesome.

Actually, by your own logic, that +2 will only help you once out of every 10 battles.  (since it adds a 10% to hit on one attack roll per encounter maximum)

That doesn't sound so awesome to me...
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« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2008, 11:56:45 PM »

math done, Elven Accuracy with Elven Precision feat outperforms +1 int until somewhere between 10 and 15 attacks on average per encounter (i'm guessing up till 12 attacks).

And that's just in pure to-hit differences, not counting the difference in how long the target stays down from the higher wisdom.
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2008, 12:13:49 AM »

OK - I'm starting to like elves more for wizards...

I'll think about this one for awhile and play with some builds, but I may change my tune here...
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2008, 02:05:30 AM »

Is nobody paying attention to the guy saying "You can have your cake and eat it, too?"

You can get an Eladrin Wizard with stats of S 8, C 11, D 16, I 18, W 15, Ch 10.  With a Wand implement at 1, that allows for a +7 to-hit roll once per encounter, which is absolutely useful.  I have the module, and I must say that against Solo and Elite monsters, you do NOT want to rely on luck to land your spells, especially powerful dailies like Sleep.

In all seriousness, by the end of H1, if as a Wizard you aren't sporting a +8 to hit, minimum, then you're better off using your dailies to preserve the dailies of more effective characters on the way to the Elites and Solos as opposed to saving your dailies for them.  If that means sacrificing the orb implement you all are drooling over, then so be it.
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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2008, 03:32:54 AM »

Is nobody paying attention to the guy saying "You can have your cake and eat it, too?"

You can get an Eladrin Wizard with stats of S 8, C 11, D 16, I 18, W 15, Ch 10.  With a Wand implement at 1, that allows for a +7 to-hit roll once per encounter, which is absolutely useful.  I have the module, and I must say that against Solo and Elite monsters, you do NOT want to rely on luck to land your spells, especially powerful dailies like Sleep.

In all seriousness, by the end of H1, if as a Wizard you aren't sporting a +8 to hit, minimum, then you're better off using your dailies to preserve the dailies of more effective characters on the way to the Elites and Solos as opposed to saving your dailies for them.  If that means sacrificing the orb implement you all are drooling over, then so be it.

...?

+7 to hit (your build) vs. +3 to hit with a +5 re-roll (elf 16|18 int|wis)... let me think about this one.  This is level 1, so we'll assume you're fighting level 1 adversaries.

Average Will defense of a level 1 monster is 11.6 - call it 12.  (Average of lowest defensive option for a level 1 monster is a little less than 11, but we'll assume we want to cast sleep, because we do).

That means your +7 needs a 5 to hit.  Ok, you also burned your 1/encounter power for certain right then.  P(hit) = .8

The +3 needs a 9 to hit, but we can re-roll one of those needing a 7.  Against that one opponent we get a P(hit) = .6 + .4*.7 = .88.  Ie, we hit one target we care the most about more often.  Amazing, what basic math skills can do.  As you only get that wand of accuracy ability on one roll, you only hit that .8 to hit against one foe too, so you're doing a little better than us (5%) against other targets.

Now, how long does your target stay down?  Well, assuming a normal monster, 55% of the time he never goes down because he makes his save after being slowed.  He's snoozing at the end of round 2 20% of the time, and after round 3 only 10%.  For a spell that deals no damage, and only slows before a save, that's not a very impressive track record, especially as you *already underperformed on hitting him*.

The orb elf wizard on the other hand drops his orb ability on him for a cool -4 to saves, dropping that initial save 20% to 35% making.  Chances are he takes a snooze after round 1, and he's still down 42% of the time after round 2 and 28% of the time after round 3.  We're doing *twice as well as you are*, or better, on making him take a dirt nap and keeping him there. 

Elven Accuracy is useable at the same frequency as the wand of accuracy, and is *better* despite a lower intelligence modifier (by 1).  And if you hit before the re-roll, you get to use it later, unlike the wand where you have to expend it beforehand.

See, you can have your cake and eat it too.  Stop reacting, do the math, be enlightened.

I have no idea what level you are at the end of H1, so I can't do the comparison then, but I have a hard time imagining anything changes since both characters attack bonuses are going up at the same rate, and monster defenses are going up at near the same rate (at least for will targetting its pretty much true in the short-term).

Edit: Oh yeah, and your sleep vs. a solo?  He only fails that bad boy's save a pitiful 20% of the time.  The orbing elf wizard does twice as well, and he snoozes (at least for a little bit) 40% of the time.  That's a serious performance difference.

Conclusion: Wand is crap unless you just want to do damage.  And then you want to be a tiefling, with fire powers, because Hellfire Blood is better than +2 dex (not to mention your racial abilities are strictly better than an Eladrin's because they give +to hit in various likely circumstances).  And that +2 Cha... eh, you can multi into Warlock or just use it instead of wisdom since you're not going to even bother picking up the orb ever - you're a damage junkie.  That's what wand of accuracy is good for.  And I imagine most people here would agree that being a damage junkie is not an optimal life choice for a wizard.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 03:43:53 AM by Squirrelloid » Logged

The ignorant shall fall to the squirrels. -Chip 4:2
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