CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"

[KellKheraptis]

A couple questions: how are you meeting the requisites for Dweomerkeeper, specifically the magic domain and the divine spells there, and where does that 6th lvl of Primal Scholar keep coming from, since in Secrets of Xendrik it's only listed as a 5 level class?

o.o
Well...amend it to Wizard 5/Dweomerkeeper 4/Mindbender 1/Primal Scholar 5/Archmage 1/Incantatrix 4, Sanctum cheese once again needed (big whoop).  And the bloodline supplies the needed Alternate Source Spell to qualify for DK.  This way also adds a metamagic feat

EDIT : Oh, and Domain Wizard variant

[The_Mad_Linguist]

You still need the magic domain.  Replace two wizard levels with singer of concordance.

[KellKheraptis]

You still need the magic domain.  Replace two wizard levels with singer of concordance.

It's explicitly stated as DM Fiat, but the list of domains isn't the only domains available.  Sub in Magic Domain from PGtF or SpC (same thing IIRC) for the usual ones listed in UA, and it's good to go.  I really like the 5th level substitution, as it adds a ton of Divinations off lists we don't have explicit access to.  Fishy?  Yes.  But so is a custom bloodline, so fuck it   It's still technically RAW legal, assuming a liberal DM.

[Naldor]

The domain wizard variant is not the same as actually possessing the domain.  You don't get the domain granted power for starters, and UA just gives you a list of spells and powers that you get, it never actually says that you possess access to the domain.  And you still haven't elaborated on this now "custom bloodline" of yours, nor how you fit a greater bloodline into an ECL 20 build and still have 20 class levels.

Item familiar will give enough bonus XP to pay for buying off the Draconic template, but it does not get us up to even ECL 21.  Bloodline levels count as normal character levels for xp purposes, so you need to count those as class levels if you're going to use them.

As-is, this build doesn't measure up to the usual CO standards for RAW-legality.

[KellKheraptis]

The domain wizard variant is not the same as actually possessing the domain.  You don't get the domain granted power for starters, and UA just gives you a list of spells and powers that you get, it never actually says that you possess access to the domain.  And you still haven't elaborated on this now "custom bloodline" of yours, nor how you fit a greater bloodline into an ECL 20 build and still have 20 class levels.

Item familiar will give enough bonus XP to pay for buying off the Draconic template, but it does not get us up to even ECL 21.  Bloodline levels count as normal character levels for xp purposes, so you need to count those as class levels if you're going to use them.

As-is, this build doesn't measure up to the usual CO standards for RAW-legality.

Who again set the standard for bloodlines?  They are LA, like anything else, and can be bought off as such.  Hell, they are even paid for earlier.  And even if I have to drop two levels of Wizard for Singer of Concordance for Magic domain (which I am loathe to do, as Spontaneous Divination is just sexy as hell), it ultimately wouldn't hurt the build too badly.

Going from there, the bloodline (Arcane Bloodline) would grant stat boosts to Int, Dex, and Con (any 3 really, as long as Int is one of them), several key bonus feats, +2 to UMD, Spellcraft, Concentration, and Knowledge checks.  The actual full list I'll edit into this post in a little while (I just got back from the store, and am currently making dinner).

[Archmage Joda]

For the domain thing, would it be counted as having the domain to take arcane disciple to gain the spells, and the Domain Granted Power alternate feature for the same domain at 5th level?

[KellKheraptis]

For the domain thing, would it be counted as having the domain to take arcane disciple to gain the spells, and the Domain Granted Power alternate feature for the same domain at 5th level?

I would think so, and DK doesn't say jack about requiring the domain granted power, only the domain, which AD grants access to.  Granted the ACF to nab the DGP is nice and all, BUT...it just doesn't measure up to Spontaneous Divination IMHO.

[altpersona]

low that they are, CO has standards...

and by low, i mean pretty high... optimal ones at that.

i dont ever recall reading anything that said bloodlines == LA. for the most part they are very similar, but show some  " " 's to back up that claim pls..

[KellKheraptis]

low that they are, CO has standards...

and by low, i mean pretty high... optimal ones at that.

i dont ever recall reading anything that said bloodlines == LA. for the most part they are very similar, but show some  " " 's to back up that claim pls..

"Bloodline Levels

Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference. instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below). "

Major bloodlines are paid for at 3rd, 6th, and 12th.  Unlike 6/12/18 for a +3 LA, which amounts to MORE[/u] expended XP.  They aren't as heavy-hitting as LA, and as such, are cheaper.  I believe the problem is not "is this optimal or RAW-legal."  I believe it is a difference of interpretations.  There was a thread on Glee about it, and if I find it, I'll be more than happy to send you to it.  But never once have I ever statted a bloodlined character -3 whole levels because of his bloodline.  So you're right, it isn't LA, it's even better because it's cheaper and more easily customized

[altpersona]

still takes 3 char lvls, and as its (explicitly) not LA isnt LA-buy-offable. ymmv...

[KellKheraptis]

still takes 3 char lvls, and as its (explicitly) not LA isnt LA-buy-offable. ymmv...

My point is that it's cheaper to buy off a bloodline than an LA...and gee, LA+3 with LA Buyoff in effect is still ECL 20 with 20 class levels if they indeed bought said LA off.  The underlying issue is adding 3-4 virtual levels to Primal Scholar, be it through Bloodlines (prefered), Legacy Champion, or some other method not yet noted.  Granted, Versatile Spellcasting can ultimately achieve the same result, by rebuilding lower level slots into higher level ones, and using the "mana battery" mentioned earlier for PS.

I wish I could find the thread altpersona.  Until then, we're agreeing to disagree.

EDIT : JaronK was the main one working on/with bloodlines, and the local expert.  We'll have to direct him here, as his response on that aspect of this thread will be more well thought out than mine.

[Archmage Joda]

Out of curiosity, what would that build look like without the use of bloodlines (say, with legacy champion instead)?

[KellKheraptis]

Out of curiosity, what would that build look like without the use of bloodlines (say, with legacy champion instead)?

Less the need for a divine spell source and domain, and less the cost of a Necromancer's Dagger, as that would be the easiest way to get "Supernatural Spell" (cut someone, that person pays the XP cost...drain followers!).  I'd rather lose that than Incantatrix, and with auto-recharge, we can still get infinite spells with proper feats without Legacy Champion.  The bloodline just makes it a lot easier, and gives a hell of a CL.

So we'd have :
Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Primal Scholar 5/Legacy Champion 4/Archmage 1/Incantatrix 4
Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Primal Scholar 5/Legacy Champion 5/Archmage 1/Incantatrix 3
Wizard 5/Dweomerkeeper 4/Mindbender 1/Primal Scholar 5/Archmage 1/Incantatrix 4

Depending on whether you feel like taking a little extra time to recharge or not.  The first one can recharge slot for slot up to 9th level spells, no Sanctum cheese needed, as the second one does.  The third one would simply use Versatile Spellcasting to trade up slots.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

A one level dip into UA tainted sorcerer is really nice. 

[KellKheraptis]

A one level dip into UA tainted sorcerer is really nice. 

Assuming an evil Ultimate Mage, this is absolutely awesome, and removes any need for a recharge mechanic.  The whole half of taint score applying as a penalty to Wisdom is kinda meh though, since that nukes the other half of our spellcasting.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

A one level dip into UA tainted sorcerer is really nice.  

Assuming an evil Ultimate Mage, this is absolutely awesome, and removes any need for a recharge mechanic.  The whole half of taint score applying as a penalty to Wisdom is kinda meh though, since that nukes the other half of our spellcasting.

Being undead prevents you from getting the con burn metamagic, but also removes all penalties from taint.


Undead with a con score is, as far as I know, impossible, but would be optimal.

[KellKheraptis]

A one level dip into UA tainted sorcerer is really nice.  

Assuming an evil Ultimate Mage, this is absolutely awesome, and removes any need for a recharge mechanic.  The whole half of taint score applying as a penalty to Wisdom is kinda meh though, since that nukes the other half of our spellcasting.

Being undead prevents you from getting the con burn metamagic, but also removes all penalties from taint.


Undead with a con score is, as far as I know, impossible, but would be optimal.

Well...Walker in the Waste would be the next best thing, as you still get bonus HP from a stat.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well, if you're allowing dragon content, "faerie mysteries initiate" gives you int to hp.  It's Oerth material, though.

Shapechange gives you abilities in place of your own nonabilities, right?  So just shapechange into a solar, spam your free metamagics, then shapechange back to your normal form, curing all con damage by virtue of having no con score, then shapechange again.

[KellKheraptis]

Well, if you're allowing dragon content, "faerie mysteries initiate" gives you int to hp.  It's Oerth material, though.

Shapechange gives you abilities in place of your own nonabilities, right?  So just shapechange into a solar, spam your free metamagics, then shapechange back to your normal form, curing all con damage by virtue of having no con score, then shapechange again.

Hmm...how would NI spell slots compare though to infinite recharge capability?  And without all the hassle of being undead?  Though I will admit...tainted spellcasting with SoS/D/L spells would be vicious.

EDIT : Also, big question here...is a base of Wizard superior to all other options?  I'd be interested in a build that started divine and had all the same types of perks using the same cheese to reach the goal of "Ultimate Mage" as well.

[Naldor]

I'll re-iterate for your benefit Kell: Bloodline Levels != LA.  You CANNOT "buy them off" one at a time, nor do you have sufficient XP to do so.  For a standard 20th-level CO build, you have exactly 190 k XP to work with, or 208,700 if you took item familiar at third level.  That gives 18,700 XP to play with.  This is insufficient to buy off a sequence of bloodline levels even if you could, and you can't.

characters are explicitly required to take a "class level of bloodline" in order to gain the abilities of said bloodline.  This sure as hell doesn't sound like LA that can be bought off.  Those rules simply do not apply.

Additionally, the Arcane Disciple feat does NOT grant "access to a domain", it grants access to the same list of spells that a given domain does.  This is NOT the same as having "access to a domain".

Access to a domain is always associated with having the granted power.  Gaining additional spells which just happen to be on the same ones that a particular domain grants access to ~= access to that domain.