Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.

[lans]

As a note, I don't have MoI, which is why I haven't placed them (I feel it would be wrong to put them up there without looking at the class at all!).  But from what you're saying, that almost sounds CW Samurai levels of bad... which could put it at upper T6.

JaronK

They are more like core paladins in what they can do, he only listed the ones that were exclusive to the soulborn list.

Actually another way to look at it is  its a Fighter that got 3 scaling feats from pool A, 5 Floating scaling feats from pool B, and 3 floating feats from pool C. In addition it gets 10 scale points, 5/smites smite, and immunity to an effect.

[Benly]

Yeah, the non-exclusive soulmelds aren't bad (immunity to divination and charm, uncanny dodge/evasion, and a pet necrocarnum zombie are all options that hop out at me just skimming the list and are all better than anything the Samurai gets). The thing is, they're not exclusive - an Incarnate will get access to them earlier, use them better, and has a whole bunch of rather nice soulmelds the Soulborn doesn't.

[lans]

Yeah, the non-exclusive soulmelds aren't bad (immunity to divination and charm, uncanny dodge/evasion, and a pet necrocarnum zombie are all options that hop out at me just skimming the list and are all better than anything the Samurai gets). The thing is, they're not exclusive - an Incarnate will get access to them earlier, use them better, and has a whole bunch of rather nice soulmelds the Soulborn doesn't.

True, but at a Tier 5 level we are pretty much discounting the class outside of free gestalt, 'Hard Mode' or other non game reasonings.

[Benly]

True, but at a Tier 5 level we are pretty much discounting the class outside of free gestalt, 'Hard Mode' or other non game reasonings.

Oh, sure. I'm not saying "Soulborn is great", I'm just explaining why I think it doesn't fall into the samurai hole down to T6 as briefly suggested. Soulborn gets some stuff, it's even semidecent stuff, it's just.. not really enough, and other classes do it better.

[awaken DM golem]

It's kinda like how the Divine Mind could instead be
Marshall 1 / Ardent 8 / Commoner 11
and with a minimum of CO effort, be better.

[lans]

Pretty much, the Divine Mind would have a couple advantages unless you swapped commoner to Warrior. Like BAB, and I think higher base saves. The Ardent levels would need to be after 2 commoner levels for maximum effect, and with the right optimization could still get 7th level powers.

[lans]

As a note, I don't have MoI, which is why I haven't placed them (I feel it would be wrong to put them up there without looking at the class at all!).

Have you considered borrowing the book from someone?

[Lycanthromancer]

As a note, I don't have MoI, which is why I haven't placed them (I feel it would be wrong to put them up there without looking at the class at all!).

Have you considered borrowing the book from someone?

Because it is awesome.

By the way, this will probably end up 'borrowed' like when you 'borrow' a cup of sugar from your neighbors.

>.> They probably won't want it back. >.>

[JaronK]

I do plan to get all the books at some point.  Just hasn't happened yet.  I also am dubious about ranking them until I've actually built one, and preferably seen it played.  But, we'll see.

JaronK

[awaken DM golem]

Heh, all of the books are available now, online.
Of course, if one has legit legal reasons to not do that (like me)
... don't worry, that'll change within the next few years.
I can wait.

{ ... insert patience versus spanking smiley face ... }

Pretty much, the Divine Mind would have a couple advantages unless you swapped commoner to Warrior. Like BAB, and I think higher base saves. The Ardent levels would need to be after 2 commoner levels for maximum effect, and with the right optimization could still get 7th level powers.

Well, I picked Ardent 8 because 10 gets too much, and 9 gets the 7th level powers easily.
2 4s and 2 5s and 2 6s is better "on time" and earlier than Divine Mind.
I mean yeah, if that build tried to do exactly what a Divine Mind does,
it'd be a little weaker early on - but not by much. Costs only 1 feat too.
Get rid of the "exactly" straight jacket and ...   ... that's a lot of Commoner levels.

[Benly]

Yeah, I basically feel like all the good stuff a soulborn can do, a multiclass fighter/incarnate could probably do a lot better. It's not such a bad situation that commoner enters into the equation, but it's not really great either.