Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.

[ErhnamDJ]

Are divine casters restricted from casting spells that are steps away from their alignment? I seem to recall a rule like that somewhere...

Only clerics.

A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

[Negative Zero]

Healers do 'eschew the use of violent spells', however.

[ErhnamDJ]

That's why they get all those uber-violent cure spells for blasting undead with?

[lans]

I'm pretty sure that's not mechanic affecting, so thats not too much of a problem.

[Akalsaris]

I think it depends on how strictly you and your DM obey the fluff about the Healer.  Mechanically, there's nothing stopping a Healer from using [Corrupt] spells, but as a DM, I would point out that any corrupt spells that cause suffering or terror, etc, are evil acts.  At least having access to Sanctified spells is a pretty nice addition to the healers' list.

Another way to expand their options is to get a domain staff from CC - the right staff can definitely boost their versatility.  Again though, you're simply paying 36,000g to get something that clerics and archivists can do for free

I'll post up a Healer's Handbook in a few days actually, once I finish going through sources and whatnot.  Mostly I've been looking for ways to expand their spell-list easily.

[SorO_Lost]

Sand Shaper to the rescue? Dust Magic adds a lot of spells to your spell list. A few of them are even setup to be lower level than they normally are I think.

[lans]

Sand Shaper to the rescue? Dust Magic adds a lot of spells to your spell list. A few of them are even setup to be lower level than they normally are I think.

Its only to arcane spells. I have been noticing alot of the ways to normally add spells to spell lists healer can't do, because it lacks the otherwise trivial spell casting requirements.

[PhaedrusXY]

"But I do love you."

I lol'd.

[Optimator]

I know it isn't a huge deal, but I believe the splat books and, specifically, the Spell Compendium added some noteworthy spells for Paladins.  Some of them can be quite cool and useful.  I'm not trying to say they bring the Paladin out o this tier, but I feel they are worth mentioning in the Pros section. 

[ErhnamDJ]

Certainly with feats (Battle Blessing, Serenity, Sword of the Arcane Order), the Paladin can be moved above some of the tier 4 classes (Barbarian, Hexblade, Mashall, and Spellthief). The problem is that the Paladin doesn't get any fun toys for a long while into his career. It takes time for his spell slots to build up enough for him to do anything with them. At first level, he's even behind the fighter in terms of usefulness.

It takes a lot of tinkering around with the Paladin to get him playable.

Compare him to Warmage. Sure, Warmage sucks. But right out of the box, it's doing what it was advertised as. So is the Barbarian. Now, the Ranger, Scout, and Rogue, being skill monkeys are a little different, but they're just as easy to screw up. That's what stands out about tier 4 to me: the classes are so easy to screw up. But generally, you get something okayish if you play it like they're designed for.

With the tier 5s on the other hand, to make them suck, you don't have to screw up. You just have to play it straight, like WotC assumes you will (and advertises the classes in their NPC write-ups and suggested builds in their little articles). A properly designed Paladin can get up to par with some of the tier 3s, but only with extensive work. Everything has to go right for this guy. Item acquisition is extremely important for him, as is stat generation. And even then, he's still not doing a whole hell of a lot until he gets second level spells at eighth level. You have to know exactly what you're doing.

I love the Paladin, but he got the short end of the stick in 3.5.

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added Optimator's note on Paladin spells.

[awaken DM golem]

Divine Mind from CPsi

Cons - Ubernoob was right, the original didn't work. An awful late WotC edit of the Ardent spawned this monstrosity. Slow Marshall 1 plus Slow Adept 16 is better. Marshall 1 / Warrior 1 / Commoner 2 / Adept 16 outpaces the original. Mind's Eye updates are MANDATORY. Least expandability of any class WotC has published. Original is Tier 6, but really only because the design was screwy.

Pro/Con (can't really tell) - Swift 1 Linked Psychic Reformation, allows a complete rebooting of the class during the second round of combat. Any other manifester class can do this sooner. But it does open the whole range of the class, at a steep experience price. Broken use of a broken power, to emulate a Marshal 1 with big tricks. Is this a Pro or a Con ?!

Pros - Mind's Eye updates save the class a little bit. Substitute Powers saves the power choices. The Turn Undead option make some Auras more useable. Hidden Talent on Wisdom, secret stacks with the Soulknife Hidden Talent; if you think 1st level powers are worth writing home about. Hey anybody want yet another Astral Construct? Divine Mind now has too much of them. Recharge Power Points available right off the bat. Hi level aura can locate any Outsider ... you'd call it broken if it was a Tier 1 with this. Limited enough list of powers, that you could allow the borkt Power Stone trick, and you still wouldn't be a Tier 2 caster. This is a "pro" because broken that isn't broken is fun.

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added Awaken DM Golem's Divine Mind description.

[ninjarabbit]

To make a point about the swashbuckler: the Daring Outlaw feat almost redeems the swashbuckler. A rogue4/swashbuckler16 has almost full BAB, full sneak attack, and trapfinding with a good number of skill points.

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added Ninjarabbit's swashbuckler pro.

[woodenbandman]

I have to say I've always preferred Rogue 16/Swash4, for the special abilities (Crippling Strike, skill mastery)

[Endarire]

Soulknife Pro: The image of a lightsaber coming out of someone's arm and doing tricks is why people take this class.  Also, you -always- have a weapon handy, but this is so minor as to be barely noticed.

[Toptomcat]

I think Battle Blessing makes the paladin a high tier 5 at minimum, maybe low tier 4 if used in combination with splatbook paladin spells.

[Anklebite]

I think Battle Blessing makes the paladin a high tier 5 at minimum, maybe low tier 4 if used in combination with splatbook paladin spells.

tier system is without optimization included, as it assumes all players have the same level of optimization.

thus, just because battle blessing and sword of the arcane order improve paladins, it doesn't mean that they get a higher tier.

[ninjarabbit]

Plus it takes a long time for battle blessing and sword of the arcane order to really get working due to the paladin's slow spell progression and limited spells per day.


Just to make a note: the hexblade is a step above the paladin for 2 main reasons: less MAD and a better overall spell list out of the box including alter self and polymorph.