Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.

[Akalsaris]

After reading all the reviews that are currently here I’m interested in reading what the Tier 1’s and 2’s will read like.

The reviews are full of nothing but the fallouts and short coming of all the classes to say little or nothing of any strong points the class may offer. I am certainly not claiming these classes are better than Clerics and Druids. Or that's Rokugan Ninjas are constantly dropkick a wizards from out of the sky but I propose that at least some redeeming facts should be stated about the classes themselves, a few facts to show what these classes “are” in fact good at doing or some shtick that can cling to.

An unfamiliar forum goer or newbie trying to learn the ancient 3.5e may get an erroneous impression about the classes and wonder why some classes listed are not tier 6 or wonder why there is a rating below 5 at all. The tier 4 rating system seems to be heading in much of the same direction.

Monks are certainly in the little leagues compared to Wizards but ye gods, they are not “Unplayable.” One would think poor Eldariel had a traumatic experience in Karate-school during his tender years with how much malice is in that review.

Excuse me, but I put in a little spiel at the start of my post about how these classes really aren't that bad.  They do have redeeming features, as people obviously play fighters to 20 and enjoy it.  It's just that its hard to be a fan of them, just like very few people care about the minor leagues. 

JaronK, a few notes on the good sides of classes:

Healer: They also get some spells earlier than other classes, like Mass Heal at 8th, Greater Restoration at 6th, Stone to Flesh at 5th, and Restoration at 3rd, which is nice.  Mostly having Mass Heal in 8th level slots is the best part, since that leaves 9th level slots open for Gate.  I'm a little surprised that the Adept made it into T4, actually - even though the adept's spell list is more versatile, the Healer has access to more powerful spell effects and gets them faster. 

Knight: Actually, they don't even have Diplomacy as a class skill...it must have been such a no-brainer that WoTC simply forgot to include it.

[Suzerain]

Do Healers somehow have an ability to mitigate XP costs? Or do you just think the transport option of Gate is awesome enough to pull the Healer up a little? Because the calling version of Gate can't be used exactly every encounter...

[Akalsaris]

After 16 levels as a Healer, I think the only thing that most healers will want to do is use Gate every single goddamn combat they can, even if that means staying at level 17 forever 

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added: bold to the pros and cons section, Akalsaris's description of the healer and bit about the knight, Awaken DM Golem's portion about dips being better than the class itself in the con section.

[JaronK]

Healer: They also get some spells earlier than other classes, like Mass Heal at 8th, Greater Restoration at 6th, Stone to Flesh at 5th, and Restoration at 3rd, which is nice.  Mostly having Mass Heal in 8th level slots is the best part, since that leaves 9th level slots open for Gate.  I'm a little surprised that the Adept made it into T4, actually - even though the adept's spell list is more versatile, the Healer has access to more powerful spell effects and gets them faster. 

The Archivist of course gets those healing spells just as fast or faster (thanks to the Healer and Adept spell lists).  But yes, the advantage of the Healer is that they do get a few things fast... and Gate, when they get it, suddenly gives them the ability to summon a Cleric (Solar) and thus get all the nifty stuff they can get out of that.  The Adept actually has utility spells before level 17, which is why it's up a Tier... the Healer really doesn't.

Knight: Actually, they don't even have Diplomacy as a class skill...it must have been such a no-brainer that WoTC simply forgot to include it.

Urk, how did I miss that?  That makes no darn sense.  Poor Knight.

JaronK

[awaken DM golem]

Tier 5s are soo bad, that a thread about Tier 5s, devolves into a thread about apostrophes ... 
 

Pros:
Soulknife can be strung up and shackled to a wall, but still kill the Bugbear guard, before it tries for a new flavor of Hot Dog.

[veekie]

After 16 levels as a Healer, I think the only thing that most healers will want to do is use Gate every single goddamn combat they can, even if that means staying at level 17 forever 

I can understand the feeling, heh.

[Runestar]

Archivist really spoils the market here. Now, whenever wotc tries to make a class competitive by allowing it access to a particular divine spell sooner than the clerical norm, it is automatically accessible to an archivst as well (get a warlock cohort if finding healers to scribe scrolls for you is too difficult).

What was wotc thinking when it printed a class that could essentially cherry pick spells from any class which can cast divine spells? 

[ErhnamDJ]

What was wotc thinking when it printed a class that could essentially cherry pick spells from any class which can cast divine spells?

$$$

[Runestar]

What was wotc thinking when it printed a class that could essentially cherry pick spells from any class which can cast divine spells?

$$$

I am willing to give them the benefit of a doubt here, considering that they did put the archivist as a free excerpt on their website...

[The_Mad_Linguist]

What was wotc thinking when it printed a class that could essentially cherry pick spells from any class which can cast divine spells?

Same thing they were thinking when they made the chameleon?

[Surreal]

...assuming that you live in a world of magicmarts. Otherwise, an Archivist will have to work for those spells. It's only broken when the DM doesn't control his game.

[Havok4]

...assuming that you live in a world of magicmarts. Otherwise, an Archivist will have to work for those spells. It's only broken when the DM doesn't control his game.

Or if the party has a warlock at level 12 who can make scrolls of any divine spell in the game. And the chameleon knows all divine spells like a cleric knows its spell list. That makes being able to cast only 6th level spells worth it.

[JaronK]

...assuming that you live in a world of magicmarts. Otherwise, an Archivist will have to work for those spells. It's only broken when the DM doesn't control his game.

Actually, an Archivist is allowed to research a new copy of any spell that already exists (if you read the research rules, the "creating a new spell" rules only apply to spells that don't already exist... otherwise, you just succeed).  As such, as long as the Archivist has some time on their hands, the Archivist can research any spell they want.  The fact that time is a possible issue is the only thing that makes it so the Archivist isn't clearly superior to the Wizard.

JaronK

[dark_samuari]

The fact that time is a possible issue is the only thing that makes it so the Archivist isn't clearly superior to the Wizard.

And time can be washed away with races like an Elan or Killoren.

[lans]

Healers get repulsion, which is an interesting battle field control spell as a 7th level spell.
Healers can make use of corrupt and sanctified spells, which I think might put them up a tier, due to a couple of them being good. Mostly Lahm's Finger Darts, others being good because it gives the healer something to do.
Healer might be able to make good use of things that add spells to spell lists, like sand shaper, extra spell, I'm sure their are others.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Healers get repulsion, which is an interesting battle field control spell as a 7th level spell.
Healers can make use of corrupt and sanctified spells, which I think might put them up a tier, due to a couple of them being good. Mostly Lahm's Finger Darts, others being good because it gives the healer something to do.
Healer might be able to make good use of things that add spells to spell lists, like sand shaper, extra spell, I'm sure their are others.

Isn't finger darts corrupt?

Don't healers have to be a good alignment?

[lans]

Nothing to stop a good person from using corrupt spells.

[Negative Zero]

Amusingly enough, it doesn't say you can't be Good and cast Corrupt spells. They are, however, all [Evil], so Good divine casters don't generally get access to them.

[lans]

Amusingly enough, it doesn't say you can't be Good and cast Corrupt spells. They are, however, all [Evil], so Good divine casters don't generally get access to them.

Are divine casters restricted from casting spells that are steps away from their alignment? I seem to recall a rule like that somewhere...