Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)

[altpersona]

I can never remember what things do / do not work w/ bloodlines.  

if i overlooked an existing handbook, please smite me...


(EDIT: found it, by  PlzBreakMyCampaign  http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863198/Balanced_Bloodlines_Interpretation_38;_Implementation?num=10&pg=1) but its got all this wotc ich on it..



I dont much care about the specific effects of any given bloodline.

but those specifics are generally laid out here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm

The Gist of it : creatures who have an ancestry that includes mythical beings may be gifted with abilities related to their heritage.

UA presents 3 tier of bloodlines, Minor, Intermediate, and Major.

I dont recall ever seeing anyone use Minor or Intermediate in TO/CO build.

They do not say it explicitly, that I am aware of, but it seems the intent is to offer LA to pc's that do not normally have it.

Pro's n Cons

con : no BAB (typical max BAB @ 20 is ~ 17)
con : no save bonuses.
con : no hit points
con : no skill points
con : no class features
con : counts as a class level.
con : 20% xp penalty for not following the progression requirements.
con : unlike regular LA, you cant buy off a bloodline, cause its not LA..

yikes thats a lot of cons.

neutral : counts as a character lvl for determining max skill ranks. (Bl 3 / Fi 1, max skill rank is 7 same as any lvl 4 pc.)
neutral : dosnt count for multi classing XP penalty.

pro: counts as a lvl in any class that has class based abilities.
pro: feats, ability increases, SLA/SU/EX abilities based on character lvl and heritage.


on the surface this looks like the one sure fire way to make straight fighter as bad as straight commoner.

but, it can be worthwhile in the right build.

did you dip spell casting classes galore?

caster5/Bl3/dip1 x 12, if all 12 dips are + cl classes, then the total CL is 56 w/ lvl 9 spells.

here is an initial list of SRD classes and their abilities that bloodlines improve.

if i put a ? next to an entry, it means i wasnt sure about its legitimacy..

not all of the listed abilities are worth it. if your lvl progression is not 1/1 or 1/2, then its probably a crappy gain..



SRD classes w/ abilities.

Barbarian

   - Rage : frequency. 1/day @ 1st lvl, 2 at 4th, +1 per 4 barb lvls thereafter, maybe max of 6.
   - Trap Sense : +1 every three barbarian lvls after 3rd lvl.
   - Im Uncanny Dodge: class lvls to determine min rogue flank lvl.

(barb5/rogue4/Bl3 = lvl R19 can flank, where B5/R7 would be 16)

   - Damage Reduction: every three lvls after 7 increase by 1.

   
Bard

   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day.
   - i think the learn a new spell in place of the old might count, but idk how that would work.
   - Bardic Knowledge
   - Bardic Music, frequency of use. (1 / day / lvl)
   - Bardic Music, various effects (im skipping them for now.)

   
Cleric

   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day.

   
Druid

   - Caster lvl, not spells per day
   - Animal Companion, power increase.
   - Animal Companion, alternate animal options
   - Wild Empathy
   - Wild Shape, Duration

Fighter

   - Nada

Monk

   - AC bonus, 1/5 lvls.
   - Flurry of blows, penalty easment?
   - Unarmed strike, damage increase?
   - Fast Movement, Rate?
   - Ki Strike
   - Slow Fall
   - Wholeness of body
   - Abundant Step, caster lvl
   - Diamond Soul
   - Quivering Palm, DC
   - Empty Body, Duration

Paladin

   - Aura of Good
   - Smite Evil, extra damage
   - Smite Evil, frequency?
   - Lay on Hands, Damage Healed.
   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day
   - Special Mount, duration
   - Remove Disease, frequency of use?
   - Paladins Mount, abilities

Ranger

   - Favored Enemy, number of? / bonus vs.
   - Wild Empathy
   - Animal Companion (as druid /2)
   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day

Rogue

   - Sneak Attack, Damage?
   - Trap Sense
   - Imp Uncanny Dodge

Sorc/Wiz

   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day
   - Replacing spells, Sorc?
   - Familiar, power increase

Arcane Archer

   - Enhance Arrow, Potency?

Arcane Trickster

   - Caster lvl, not spells per day
    - Ranged Legerdemain, frequency of use?
   - Sneak Attack, damage?

   
Archmage

   - Caster lvl, not spells per day.
   - Arcane Fire, Damage
   - Arcane Fire, Range

Assassin

   - Sneak Attack, Damage?
   - Death Attack, DC
   - Death Attack, paralysis duration
   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day.
   - Spell swap out?
   - Poison save, bonus
   - Imp Uncanny Dodge

Blackgaurd
   

- Aura of Evil, power
   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day
   - Smite Good, Damage
   - Command Undead, effective lvl
   - Sneak Attack, damage?

Dragon Disciple

   - Breath Weapon, damge?
   - Breath Weapon, DC

Duelist

   - Canny Defense, AC bonus limit

Dwarven Defender

   - AC bonus, max 4?
   - Defensive Stance, frequency of use?
   - Trap Sense
   - Imp Uncanny Dodge

Eldritch Knight

   - Caster lvl + spells per day? "This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly."

Hierophant

   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day.

Loremaster

   - Caster lvl + spell per day? "this essentially means" ...
   - Secret, number of?
   - Secret, determine choice of secret
   - Lore, as bardic knowledge

Mystic Theurge

   - Caster lvls and Spells per day? " this essentially means"...

Shadowdancer
   

- Summon Shadow, shadow HD?
   - xp penalty for loss of shadow, easment.
   - Shadow Jump, distance?
   - Imp Uncanny Dodge

Thaumaturgist

   - Caster lvl and Spells per day?

Adept
   

- Caster lvl
   - Familiar, power

   

I dont think that the class/ability list method is the best for this subject, so heres the revised list of SRD class abilities w/ out the class.

   - Rage : frequency. 1/day @ 1st lvl, 2 at 4th, +1 per 4 barb lvls thereafter, maybe max of 6.
   - Trap Sense : +1 every three barbarian lvls after 3rd lvl.
   - Im Uncanny Dodge: class lvls to determine min rogue flank lvl.
   - Damage Reduction: every three lvls after 7 increase by 1.
   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day.
   - Bardic Knowledge
   - Bardic Music, frequency of use. (1 / day / lvl)
   - Bardic Music, various effects (im skipping them for now.)
   - Animal Companion, power increase.
   - Animal Companion, alternate animal options
   - Wild Empathy
   - Wild Shape, Duration
   - AC bonus, 1/5 lvls.
   - Flurry of blows, penalty easment?
   - Unarmed strike, damage increase?
   - Fast Movement, Rate?
   - Ki Strike
   - Slow Fall
   - Wholeness of body
   - Abundant Step, caster lvl
   - Diamond Soul
   - Quivering Palm, DC
   - Empty Body, Duration
   - Aura of Good
   - Smite , extra damage
   - Smite , frequency?
   - Lay on Hands, Damage Healed.
   - Special Mount, duration
   - Remove Disease, frequency of use?
   - Paladins Mount, abilities
   - Favored Enemy, number of? / bonus vs.
   - Sneak Attack, Damage?
   - Replacing spells
   - Familiar, power increase
   - Enhance Arrow, Potency?
    - Ranged Legerdemain, frequency of use?
   - Arcane Fire, Damage
   - Arcane Fire, Range
   - Death Attack, DC
   - Death Attack, paralysis duration
   - Poison save, bonus
   - Aura of Evil, power
   - Command Undead, effective lvl
   - Breath Weapon, damge?
   - Breath Weapon, DC
   - Canny Defense, AC bonus limit
   - AC bonus, max 4?
   - Defensive Stance, frequency of use?
   - Secret, number of?
   - Secret, determine choice of secret
   - Lore, as bardic knowledge
   - Summon Shadow, shadow HD?
   - xp penalty for loss of shadow, easment.
   - Shadow Jump, distance?

Overall, based only on srd classes / abilities, only three of four things seem useful.

Caster Lvl
Uncanny Dodge, lvl needed to be flatfooted by a rogue.. (meh)
Monk abilities (o yay, just what a monk needs, 3 more lvls that dont add bab or hp, or reduce MAD)
Familiar / Animal Companion / mount abilities
Smite damage
Wild Empathy ( )

Im not sure about any of the abilities that are defined as 'every X lvls' such as favored enemy.

Im also not sure about Sneak Attack damage. if your SA is = 1/2 class lvl then yes, if each increment is a class feature then no. ymmv..

another area of greyness, is Caster lvls.

plain old Caster Level is in the description of bloodlines.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

It says do not count toward spells per day, Only count toward Caster Level.

pretty clear cut.

but what if the class ability says Caster Level AND Spells per day are lvl based abilities.

we have known since ancient times that caster lvl and spells per day are not joined together..  for some of use learning this came as a shock, akin to the truth behind the great pumpkin or santa pun pun.

most classes are very clear on how they effect your spell casting.

some classes provide a spell list.
some increase the caster lvl of an existing class.
some increase the caster lvl and spells per day of and existing class.
some may, increase the spells per day of an existing class w/out increasing caster lvl.

the point being, ymmv when it comes to spell casting and bloodlines.


this post has dealt only w/ SRD items.

That leaves out one of the most CO abilities of all... Initiator Lvl..

If you have lvls in  Martial Class you have a full Initiator lvl per class lvl.. if not you have 1/2 per.

this can be a beautiful thing, if ToB is allowed..

but ToB should get its own post..

so, thats it for now, till i or someone like me dig into the other source books for more lvl based abilities..

I'll reserve the next post for builds.

after that the floor is open..



EDIT: i flat left srd psionics out.

but if they had been included, i would have mentioned, psi crystals, and soul knives..

[altpersona]

Builds

till people post / suggest builds, im just gonna crawl around and steal em.. will give credit where i find it... if a screw that up, bitch at me...

Vita

CG Dream dwarf (major titan bloodline) Cleric (Wrath [Strength Devotion], Destruction Devotion) 1/Barbarian 1/Crusader 15
Feats: Awesome Smite^CC, Divine Might, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (orc shotput), Extra Smiting, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Rapid Shot
Spells: rhino's rush
Equipment: Graf Eisen, 5x +1 orc shotput of returning

Item Familiar: Graf Eisen (+5 brutal surge warhammer of sizing)

Schwalbe Fliegen: Rapid Shot full attack with Orc shotput
Gigantform: Use sizing enchantment to grow Graf Eisen to Gargantuan size.

 Binder 7 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Scion of Dantalion 2 / Tenebrous Apostate 1 / Apostate of the Green Lady 1 / Cleric 1 / major bloodline 3 has an EBL of 31, and can bind 4 vestiges as well (though 2 of them are set due to PrCs).  With Orthos and Amon, that's 31d6 damage area attacks: not bad!

Two builds which exloit the heck out of Bloodlines by Phoenix00
Race: Illuminan
Books open any

Class Breakdown:
Cloistered Cleric 1/
Bloodline 3/
Binder 1/
Chameleon 10/
Knight of Sacred Seal 1/
Scion of Dantalion 1/
Reflavoed Tenebrous Apostate 1 which now simulate Andromalius as per the Tenebrous Apostate adaption
Knight of Sacred Seal 2 (for a total of 3)

Domains are Trickery and Planning

Feats
1 Able Learner
1 (flaw) Two Weapon Fighting
1 (flaw) Persist Spell
3 Weapon Focus Daggers or Something
6
9
12
15 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
18
Planning Domain gives you Extend Spell
With Heroics get the other Two Weapon Fighting Feats
Don’t forget the floating feat from Chameleon.
Naenhoon thingy to get the ability to persist draconic polymorph and polymorph into a Kelvezu. Also persist Wraithstrike, Improved Blink is also nice.
On divine the only necessary ones are Hunter’s Eye and Divine Power for Full BAB

Bloodlines stack with the Chameleon Caster level giving a bonus of six caster levels.
Bloodlines stack with Binder Levels and anything with Soulbinding thus dramatically increasing your Effective Binding Level, which determines your eligable vestiges, the amount of vestiges you can bind, and the powers of your vestiges.
----
In the end you have full chameleon with a caster level of 26 (30 with beads of karma), can persist arcane and divine spells And
an effective binder level of 17. Thus 3 vestiges up to 8th level.

Sneak Attack
10d6 from Hunter's Eye
8d6 from Draconic Polymorph into a Kelvezu (using Zceryl pseudonatural bind to become an outsider while bound and then persistent draconic polymorph)
4d6 from Andromalius
If I remember there are two +1 weapon enchantments that both give you +1d6 sneak attack damage and stack (source? one was a web enhancement).


At lvl 12
Binds as a 17th lvl Binder (1+3)+(6+3)+(1+3)=17 EBL
Spells Known as a 10th lvl Sorcerer. 1 Base+2 LoreDrake+1 Draconic Rite of Passage+6 Anima Mage=10
Caster Level of 16. 1+3 Base+2 LoreDrake+1 Draconic Rite of Passage+6+3 Anima Mage=16 Caster Level

My Knight of the Sacred Seal vestige be Zceryll

Feats
1 Dragonwrought Kobold
1 Precocious Apprentice
1 Extend Spell
3 Dragon Reservoir Feat
6 Persist Spell
9 Weapon Focus Touch Attack
12 Favored Vestige Zceryll (retrain this as Ability Focus Zceryll’s Bolt of Madness after level 12)
15 Open
18 Open

[SBLOCK=4 vestiges in order of binding preference]

    * Zceryll for outsider, daze for 3 rounds, as well as an ability to summon monsters from the summon monster I-IX list.
    * Ashardalon. Change the fear spell to the ability to breath a cone of fire with damage equal to your effective binder level*d6 and range of effective binder level*5 feet.
    * Orthos for the breath weapon and his ability to simulate something similar to greater blink
    * Primus from Dragon 341 for the command ability, also for damage reduction. Save or lose with no mind affecting or language component.[/SBLOCK][SBLOCK=Spells]
Spells
From a flavor perspective, all spells such have one of these themes

    * Eventually extend life related/immortality related (such as magic jar may eventually allow me to steal bodies)
    * Dragon Related
    * Defensive Related/Good buff in general (mage armor, remember I only have 9 hd, etc)
    * Ray spells


1st

    * Mage Armor, spell research this, every 3 additional sps increase the armor bonus by 1.
    * Magic Missile, spell research this, every 2 additional sps increase the number of missiles by 1 with no cap
    * Grease, Research each 2 sp invested increases the save by 1, Flavor wise I spit the grease on the floor like a breath weapon
    * Ray of Clumsiness
    * Nerveskitter

2nd

    * Wings of Cover
    * Alter Self (picking an outsider form to look like a human, such as an angel, wings are tentacle like things due to Zceryll, similar to Tyrael from Diablo 2 Hide his tentacles underneath a cloak)
    * Heart of Air
    * Ray of Stupidity
    * Available at lvl 13 Create Magical Tattoo

3rd

    * Frost Breath, Spell research this no damage cap
    * Heart of Water
    * Ray of Exhaustion
    * Open, Available at lvl 13

4th

    * Dominate Person, Research to turn this into psionic Dominate except minimum cost is 8 instead of 7
    * Greater Mirror Image, Persist this
    * Globe of Invulnerability, since this doesn’t folly me around I won’t persist this, Research every additional 3 sp invested increases the spells levels affected by 1. Available at lvl 13
    * Open, Available at lvl 15

5th

    * Magic Jar, use this to assume the form of a more powerful dragon I had dominated for a polymorph like effect
    * Open, Available at lvl 13
    * Open, Available at lvl 15

6th

    * Open, Available at lvl 14
    * Open, Available at lvl 15

7th

    * Open, Available at lvl 16


The spells I am persisting with Anima Mage

    * Greater Mirror Image at 10, DM will allow me to suppress the images but I can unsupress them as a free action but it doesn’t affect people until their next turn.
    * Open second spell I want to persist at lvl 13
    * Open third spell I want to persist at lvl 15[/SBLOCK]

Bloodline 3 / Warlock 12 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Chameleon 2

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Glaive_of_the_Hellfire_Warlock_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5891.msg194537#msg194537

Major Fey Bloodline Feytouched Half-Fey Sorcerer 5/Wild Soul 10/ (Metamagic Specialist variant)/XXX 2

On 25 points:
STR 8 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 17 (STR 8 DEX 14 CON 10 INT 12 WIS 10 CHA 23 adjusted).  CHA is the only stat to boost.

TRAIT: Spellgifted (Enchantment).
FLAWS: Noncombatant, Vulnerable.

FEATS: (no particular order listed) Fey Heritage, Silent Spell, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Fey Skin, Touch of Distraction, Fey Power, Twin Spell, Augment Summoning

ABILITIES: Fly 60' (Good); Low-Light Vision; DR 8/Cold Iron; Immune to mind-effecting spells & effects; Immune to Enchantment spells and effects; +2 on Hide/Move Silently; Charm Person at will; Hypnotism 1/day; Faerie Fire or Glitterdust 1/day; Sleep or Enthrall 1/day; Detect Law and Protection from Law 3/day each; Suggestion or Tasha's Hideous Laughter 1/day; Confusion or Emotion 1/day; Eyebite or Lesser Geas 1/day; Dominate Person or Hold Monster 1/day; Mass Invisibility 1/day; Geas/Quest or Mass Suggestion 1/day; Seelie Courtier; Spontaneous (Seelie) Spells; Seelie Bond; Summon Seelie Ally.

[Aliment]

So the basics of the story is: Find a class that has a powerful feature based on Class level, and dip into it?  So would a swift hunter work?  Advance the Scout abilities while increasing the ranger level to get Skirmish 2x as fast?  And has anybody figured out what's up with the Titan bloodline allowing you to just randomly wield a giant hammer?

[altpersona]

PBMC's handbook is pretty comprehensive.

i have not looked at swift hunter stuff for applicability.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

And has anybody figured out what's up with the Titan bloodline allowing you to just randomly wield a giant hammer?

Somebody was up late watching cartoons.

[KellKheraptis]

I'm going to check ToB and edit in a response, but from the looks of it, this may well make up for the majority of that which is lost by taking JPM as a wizard (not counting 10 levels that could have been Incantatrix, and a dip that could have been Metaphysical Spellshaper, but that's a different discussion).  9th level spells and 8th level maneuvers without SC or UP are already possible, so once I do a little crunch I'll edit in my findings.  Stay tuned!

EDIT : Here's one from the hip -
Battle Sorcerer 4/Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Bloodline 3/Dragonslayer 1

What We Get :

CL 29
BAB 16 (3+1+1+10+1)
10d6+6d8+1d10+17(Con Mod) HP
Casting Progression of a Sorcerer 21 assuming the PrC trick works
IL of 26 I think...
Bad ass gishness from hell!

[Prime32]

Surely the real cheese here comes when you use PrCs which add your levels in another class to determine their level-based abilities?

For instance, ur-priest and sublime chord. It's been ages since I looked at the second, but ur-priest lets you add half your caster levels in other classes to your ur-priest caster level. Two levels of bloodline equals +3 caster level for ur-priest spells.

Then there's hellfire warlock, probably the most common use of bloodlines. Maybe a section comparing bloodlines against Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster for when you want to take level-based abilities beyond the cap? (Fiend of Possession is another good candidate for this)

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Combining bloodlines with UT/LC is the way to go.

[awaken DM golem]

Pathetic classes, with no real splat support, have this as the only possible improver.
Bloodline 3 / UT 2 / LC 2 gets 4 extra levels, of class abilities.
So ...
Divine Mind 7 / B3 / UT 2 / LC 2 gets the move action switch.
Lurk 6 / B3 / UT 2 / LC 2 gets the Mind's Eye Metafaculty (ps)
yet they are still yawners.

Titan Bloodline says -
" ... Use oversized weapon (Ex)2 ... "
" ... # As the titan special ability. ... "
" ... Oversized Weapon (Ex) A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty. ... "

One possibility is "warhammer" is the extent of it. As in ONLY warhammer.
The other possibility is it refers to "oversized weapon" and the MM Titan just happens to be weilding a warhammer, it could be any weapon.

If the 2nd, then yeah you could wield a ridiculously large weapon.
Or a Monk could Flurry, with a "light" weapon relative to being able to wield really big hammers.

[Aliment]

Kobold (Slight of Build) w/ Titan Bloodline.  Tiny creature with a Gargantuan hammer (could be Collosal if you 2-handed it right?).

I think someone did this except with Psychic warrior.  Mr. Big or something?

[Havok4]

Kobold (Slight of Build) w/ Titan Bloodline.  Tiny creature with a Gargantuan hammer (could be Collosal if you 2-handed it right?).

I think someone did this except with Psychic warrior.  Mr. Big or something?

That actually used subtype abuse and Jortunbrud.

[Prime32]

You can still combine Titan Bloodline with return to nature abuse and be a Fine creature with a Gargantuan weapon.

[altpersona]

You can still combine Titan Bloodline with return to nature abuse and be a Fine creature with a Gargantuan weapon.

visions of pixies dance in my head...

[Prime32]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC28aMN_WTk

[reddir]

I'm a bit confused re counting Bloodline 'levels' in ECL.

Quoting from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm  first paragraph
"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."

This seems pretty straight forward.

[altpersona]

i think, what they meant so say, is 'we have an idea for a new option, but 4e is nearly here so we are not going to go into any detail about this new item."

[awaken DM golem]

Link to a designer weighing in on bloodlines:

http://gameschat19968.yuku.com/topic/2348


I'll comment later.
EDIT --- I posted this over here, instead of on PLZ's thread,
because I got weenie filtered off of that, inspite having posted on it.
I hate my weenie filter, I really do.