PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« on: June 23, 2009, 10:13:32 AM » |
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After a simple Q&A on 339, lets figure out where everyone stands: In drow of the underdark, a drow cleric "can use [turn/rebuke vermin] in place of turn or rebuke undead for the purpose of qualifying for divine feats. But, can it use them to fuel DMM?If you read, please vote. If you vote 2 or 4, there is no need to read the whole thread. Edit: and yes I voted, but I'll say what later  |
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 10:31:30 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r |
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Khorus
Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
Posts: 217
TPK FTW!
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« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2009, 01:45:52 PM » |
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Same thing as undead just more campaign specific to me. As such I see no reason, if your playing a campaign in the underdark, not to allow turn vermin to function as turn undead for feat qualification.
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AfterCrescent
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
Posts: 4220
Here After
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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2009, 01:47:19 PM » |
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The qualifying clause is nice, but with some specific reading, we see that you need to spend a turn/rebuke attempt fuel DMM. It does not specify that you must use turn/rebuke undead. It says "You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using." It implies, and RAI may agree, that you should use turn undead, but it does not actually say that. So it works.
But even with a RAI DM, turn vermin should work via the qualifying clause.
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Jvirtue55
Ring-Tailed Lemur
Posts: 64
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2009, 01:55:10 PM » |
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What is the Qualifying Clause?
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AfterCrescent
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
Posts: 4220
Here After
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2009, 02:26:13 PM » |
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In drow of the underdark, a drow cleric "can use [turn/rebuke vermin] in place of turn or rebuke undead for the purpose of qualifying for divine feats. That is the qualifying clause. it qualifies for the feat, so it should be able to be used to fuel it. |
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VennDygrem
Member
Grape ape
Posts: 1689
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2009, 07:51:01 PM » |
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But what of other sources of turning/rebuking? Their qualifications have been debated forever, specifically because they say "turn/rebuke [X creatures] as a cleric turns/rebukes undead", which implies that clerics with those abilities use positive energy to turn/rebuke those creatures rather than undead, but still using the same energy in almost the same way. It's cheesy, and if allowed by the DM, can allow for much brokenness, especially when combined with something granting extra domains. The issue with these types is that implication does not mean truth. Thus, the debate rages on, as it will with our kind.
I, for one, agree that the qualifying statement justifies the reasoning more-so than other, more ambiguous alternate sources by virtue of its existence.
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2009, 09:21:43 PM » |
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This is my response to the endless "alternative turning fuel" crisis:
If you have the ability to rebuke hippopotami, why the heck are you going to waste it powering your spells.
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AfterCrescent
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
Posts: 4220
Here After
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« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2009, 10:18:01 AM » |
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This is my response to the endless "alternative turning fuel" crisis:
If you have the ability to rebuke hippopotami, why the heck are you going to waste it powering your spells.
Because rebuking hippos is dumb. If you could rebuke something cool, like a dragon or golem, then you have a point.  |
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BowenSilverclaw
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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2009, 10:36:04 AM » |
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This is my response to the endless "alternative turning fuel" crisis:
If you have the ability to rebuke hippopotami, why the heck are you going to waste it powering your spells.
Because rebuking hippos is dumb. If you could rebuke something cool, like a dragon or golem, then you have a point. Dude, have you ever seen an angry hippo? Those things are awesome  |
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"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!" You caught a fish. It was awesome.  |
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AfterCrescent
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
Posts: 4220
Here After
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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2009, 10:58:25 AM » |
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Angry dragon >>>> Angry hippo
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woodenbandman
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« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2009, 11:33:23 AM » |
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My response: Yes, and you can pick ONE pool of turning to power your Divine Megamagic.
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2009, 11:43:45 AM » |
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Angry dragon >>>> Angry hippo
Hippos are the most dangerous animal in africa. They're certainly more dangerous than komodo dragons. Now, given the obvious superiority of non-magical hippos to non-magical dragons, imagine what a fantasy hippo would be like. |
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Shadowhunter
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« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2009, 11:45:14 AM » |
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Now, given the obvious superiority of non-magical hippos to non-magical dragons, imagine what a fantasy hippo would be like.
He does have a point AC |
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the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  (A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours) I often have to remind people not to underrate divination. The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote] Binder? You're WelcomeZceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2. Cagemarrow is a GeniusBefore giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice. |
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BowenSilverclaw
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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2009, 11:46:52 AM » |
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Now, given the obvious superiority of non-magical hippos to non-magical dragons, imagine what a fantasy hippo would be like.
He does have a point AC All hail the Hippo |
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"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!" You caught a fish. It was awesome. |
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AfterCrescent
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
Posts: 4220
Here After
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« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2009, 01:06:39 PM » |
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I believe I've seen it. It's called a dire hippo and is CR 14. I'm not impressed.
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2009, 01:25:51 PM » |
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I believe I've seen it. It's called a dire hippo and is CR 14. I'm not impressed.
That's like the equivalent of a pseudodragon. Hardly worth the title of king of beasts. |
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2009, 02:50:58 PM » |
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Okay, so it pretty much seems most everyone says yes (22-3). I let this flow out of my mind for a while and upon coming back I noticed this: "This ability otherwise works exactly as rebuke undead." This gives a clear break from the 'as a cleric turns undead' line. This is not just mechanically similar, but it will function in all aspect for the cleric as if it were rebuke undead. That's my vote Edit: So... because the board clearly favors the 'Yes' route, I'll be updating a certain max-DMMable pools character |
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« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 08:50:49 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r |
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