Transfer Enchantment.

[gagnrath]

Ok I'm a wizard with transfer enchantment ritual.

The way I understand this is that if two items are the same type and both take the same slot I can transfer enchantment between them.  Here's the specific question.

I am an eladrin wizard with the eladrin sword wizard feat that lets me use a sword as an implement.

I have an orb that I also use as an implement.

They both take up a hand slot, I can transfer the power right? (though I only get the +1 and the extra d6 on attacks I wouldn't ever get the +5 temp hit points unless I use magic missile in melee to kill someone).

If not then I could put it in my quarterstaff from the sword because both are standard non-feat weapons and both take up a hand slot?  At which point I could still put it from the staff to my orb because both are standard implements?

[Banor]

No because Magic Orbs and Magic Swords aren't the same thing it doesn't matter how similar weapons are as long as your new weapon could exist by using Enchant Magic Item rules. For exemple, you could transfer the enchantement of an Vicious Axe (since your sword qualifies for it).

[gagnrath]

They just have to both be the same type of item correct?  The sword isn't a weapon its an implement.

[Agita]

The sword isn't a weapon its an implement.

The orb isn't an implement, it's a billiard ball.


On a more serious note, let's look at the text.

The receiving item must occupy the same magic item
slot (head, waist, armor, and so on) and be the same
type (wand, rod, weapon, and so on) as the original
item.

Emphasis mine. Wand, rod, orb etc. are all distinct types of items. 'Implement' is not a type of item that can be enchanted, otherwise there would one "Magic Implement" enchantment instead of different "Magic X" enchantments for every type of implement. 'Weapon' is another distinct type of item. A sword is not an orb, so you can't transfer the enchantment from the sword to the orb. You could concievably transfer the enchantment to a staff you use as implement since it's also a weapon (assuming the staff can inherently be used as both an implement and a weapon - not sure on this, but I wouldn't be surprised). You could not then transfer it further to the orb, however, because a staff is not an orb.

[gagnrath]

The and so on is the key wording there isn't it?

[Agita]

The and so on is the key wording there isn't it?

"And so on" simply refers to the other types of magic items that can have different enchantments (at this time, armor, holy symbol, orb, rod, totem). They didn't Just list all of them because they're sure to make new types in the future (at the time of Adventurer's Vault's printing, there were no totems yet, for example). And because they're lazy bastards.

[gagnrath]

So I've got a pair of weapons that are magical implements for me, An orb and a sword.  I can transfer them or I can't?

As long as they are both the same type of Item I'm ok and it doesn't matter what type they are as long as they are the same type?

So I can move it from one implement to another, IE orb to orb or orb to wand or orb to sword or I can move it from one weapon to another  IE longsword to brassknuckles or longsword to hammer or longsword to orb, or axe to broomhandle.  They just have to be the same type of item and as long as they share the same item type?

[Agita]

So I've got a pair of weapons that are magical implements for me, An orb and a sword.  I can transfer them or I can't?

As long as they are both the same type of Item I'm ok and it doesn't matter what type they are as long as they are the same type?

So I can move it from one implement to another, IE orb to orb or orb to wand or orb to sword or I can move it from one weapon to another  IE longsword to brassknuckles or longsword to hammer or longsword to orb, or axe to broomhandle.  They just have to be the same type of item and as long as they share the same item type?

Like I said, 'Implement' is not a category of magic item. This is because different characters use different items as implements. To the Wizard, the Warlock's rod is just a vibrator. To the Swordmage, the Wizard's staff is just what the wimp leans on when he's tired. To the Warlock, the Cleric's holy symbol is just what the religious twit swings around when he's being all self-righteous.
You can move an enchantment from one orb to another, because both are orbs. You cannot move an enchantment from an orb to a wand, because one is an orb and one is a wand. You can move an enchantment from a sword to a hammer, because both are weapons. You cannot move an enchantment from a sword to an orb, because one is a weapon and one is an orb.

But hey, if your DM lets you, more power to you.

[gagnrath]

Ah the orb is every bit as much a weapon as the sword is. 
Main Entry:1weap·on
Pronunciation:\?we-p?n\
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English wepen, from Old English wæ?pen; akin to Old High German w?ffan weapon, Old Norse v?pn
Date:before 12th century
1 : something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy
2 : a means of contending against another

By either way weapon is used it is a weapon.

[Agita]

Ah the orb is every bit as much a weapon as the sword is. 
Main Entry:1weap·on
Pronunciation:\?we-p?n\
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English wepen, from Old English wæ?pen; akin to Old High German w?ffan weapon, Old Norse v?pn
Date:before 12th century
1 : something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy
2 : a means of contending against another

By either way weapon is used it is a weapon.

Except D&D does not use the dictionary definition of "weapon". In D&D, a weapon is something that's listed as "weapon". An orb is not listed as a "weapon", therefore it is not a weapon. Although I'm loathe to say this, I'm sure CustServ will back me up on this.

But again, if you can get it by your DM (which I doubt), have fun with your Cunning Orb.

[Dan2]

The ritual gives the examples of type: wand, rod, weapon, and so on.
If you'll notice, these are the same headings that the various enchantments are grouped under.
(pgs 227, 232, 236, 238, etc)
It's clear that the items are supposed to be grouped this way.

[gagnrath]

Right so when I want to enchant my orb or rod and I go to do so using enchant magic weapon Its all good as long as I hit someone with it first.  since I've got a dragon born in the part I don't like it should be nice.

[Dan2]

... no.  That isn't how it works.

If you're actually asking a question, you have an answer.
If you're trying to get support for an action the DM won't let you take, you won't find it here.
If you don't like the responses you are getting, ignore them, but don't pretend to ask a question if all you want to hear is your own interpretation.

[gagnrath]

I'm trying to figure out how you come at your interpretation from the rules as written.   I'm asking the question because thats the way from every source I can find that I think it should work but it requires some interpretation from the rules as written to acheive it.   The answered way seems to limit what the players can do in what is supposed to be a free form way.  This 4e game/campaign is a rotating DM campaign of which has 5 players that switch out as DM every 3 to 4 weeks.  right now we're divided as to weather or not we should allow this 2 saying yes 3 saying no.  When I ask those that say no their reason is "it seems rather powerful".  We are in the last week of one of the people who says no's adventure (it should be the last week anyways unless we go off and do random stuff in character again.).  Its my character that wants to do it so I'm not going to transfer the enchantment on my turn as DM but the person who agree's with me that there is nothing in the rules directly forbiding it is up next and since he runs short things I'm likely to try it then.  Unless I can find a compeling reason not to do it.

[Agita]

I'm trying to figure out how you come at your interpretation from the rules as written.   I'm asking the question because thats the way from every source I can find that I think it should work but it requires some interpretation from the rules as written to acheive it.   The answered way seems to limit what the players can do in what is supposed to be a free form way.  This 4e game/campaign is a rotating DM campaign of which has 5 players that switch out as DM every 3 to 4 weeks.  right now we're divided as to weather or not we should allow this 2 saying yes 3 saying no.  When I ask those that say no their reason is "it seems rather powerful".  We are in the last week of one of the people who says no's adventure (it should be the last week anyways unless we go off and do random stuff in character again.).  Its my character that wants to do it so I'm not going to transfer the enchantment on my turn as DM but the person who agree's with me that there is nothing in the rules directly forbiding it is up next and since he runs short things I'm likely to try it then.  Unless I can find a compeling reason not to do it.

Please, take a look at this whole thread. It has been explained why it doesn't work like that. Multiple times, by three different posters. And I have not, a single time, seen "it seems rather powerful" as an answer.

[Dan2]

The rules explicitly say that the item must be of the same type.

You have an orb and a weapon.
Within the rules text, it differentiates the subsets of implements from each other and from weapons.
You cannot transfer an enchantment from a wand to a rod (or vice versa), as they are different types.
You cannot transfer an enchantment from a rod to a weapon (or vice versa), as they are different types.
You cannot transfer an enchantment from an orb to a weapon (or vice versa), as they are different types.

The rules further state:

The enchantment to be moved must be valid for the receiving item, so that you cannot transfer ranged weapon properties to melee weapons, cloth-only armor properties to chainmail, and so on.

An enhancement that is only valid for weapons will not be valid for an orb.




You are correct in that you could likely transfer the enhancement to a staff or quarterstaff (unless the enhancement was only for bladed weapons).
However, you are incorrect in the latter part of that statement.  That is, you could not then transfer the enhancement from the staff to the orb, because they are different types.

[gagnrath]

How is a sword or a rod or a staff a different type than an orb?  Thats what I'm not understanding.  Orb isn't a delineated catagory in that statement and since I use my orb to hurt people it fits the weapon catagory.

[Agita]

How is a sword or a rod or a staff a different type than an orb?  Thats what I'm not understanding.  Orb isn't a delineated catagory in that statement and since I use my orb to hurt people it fits the weapon catagory.

You're using the old "It doesn't say you can't" fallacy. Take a look at the three words "and so on". Why would they be there? That's because there are more categories. I also explained this earlier in the thread. Please allow me to ask a honest question, without scorn or sarcasm: Did you actually read my posts?

[Dan2]

How is a sword or a rod or a staff a different type than an orb?  Thats what I'm not understanding.  Orb isn't a delineated catagory in that statement and since I use my orb to hurt people it fits the weapon catagory.

The rules specifically delineate different types based on the enchantments available.

Take a look:

The receiving item must occupy the same magic item
slot (head, waist, armor, and so on) and be the same
type (wand, rod, weapon, and so on) as the original
item.

Wand is specifically delineated from rod, and from weapon.  The "and so on" is to futher delineate armor, orb, and holy symbol, not to mention totems and types of items that weren't (or aren't) created yet.

If you're saying that, because the orb wasn't specifically mentioned in the statement that you can classify it as whatever-the-hell sort of item you want, you are wrong.
It is perfectly clear how they are delineating items.

There are different enchantments available for different types of items.
Wands have specific enchantments, and those are the only enchantments you can put on a wand.
Likewise, orbs have specific enchantments, and those are the only enchantments you can put on an orb.

Remember that the rules also specifically say that the enchantment being transferred must be valid for the receiving item.  Even if you could theoretically transfer an enchantment from your sword to your orb (which you can't), the enchantment would have to be valid for the orb.  Which means the specific enchantment would have to be found in the list of enchantments that you can place on an orb.
The primarly list can be found on page on page 239 of the Player's Handbook.

If you're looking at the RAW, as you claimed, it's very clear.

[gagnrath]

Dan the only thing having anything to do with orbs on page 239 is the price list of the premade orbs and the orb of sanguary repurcussions.   It seems to have little or nothing to do with your point.

Page 224 seems far more directly relevent here is the text.

Magic Item Categories
Magic items fall into seven broad categories: armor,
weapons, implements, clothing, rings, wondrous items,
and potions. Items in a particular category have similar
effects—all magic weapons give you bonuses when
you attack with them, and all magic boots have powers
relating to movement. Aside from those broad generalities,
though, magic items possess a wide variety of
powers and properties.

The emphasis is mine

So since types are described there and a long sword is specifically described as a weapon it would seem that I couldn't transfer.
Then arcane power comes out.
 

ELADRIN SWORD WIZARDRY
Prerequisite: Dex 13, eladrin, wizard
Benefit: You can wield a longsword as an implement
when using wizard powers. Your longs word
adds its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and
damage rolls and any extra damage granted by a
property (if applicable) when used as an implement.
You do not gain your weapon proficiency bonus to

page 225

Which just lets the wizard turn the longsword as an implement.  Making it fit both catagories above.