Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief with Cleric Cohort

[Sinfire Titan]

Hexblade seemed like a pretty synergistic class, as it's heavily based on Charisma as well. But the class as it is just isn't worth it, and doesn't get me the skill points I want; any fixes to the class would bump it up a tier and make the whole point moot.

One idea would be to use my Hexblade fix beside the unmodified Warlock, as then you get a number of useful tricks to work with (the auras, more invocations, and even actual spells). This has the advantage of opening up PrCs that wouldn't normally advance your invocations without losing out. The Hexblade's invocations can be forgone easily, as you can just restrict them to personal buffs.

Warlock 20//Crusader 2/Hexblade 5/JPM (or Darkwyrm invoker, if I finish the capstone soon enough) 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Hexblade +3= Massive amounts of usefulness.

[VennDygrem]

Hmm, I'll look into this (though, the more options I'm presented with, the longer it takes to finalize a build  )

As a side note, would it be worth more to have the crusader's better hit points at first level, or the option of somewhat higher maneuver choices by going Hexblade 5/Crusader 2/etc.? Maybe a slightly different comination, depending. Oh, and also I'd hate to decide to be either Chaotic Good or Chaotic Evil, given alignment restrictions. I was hoping to maintain the morally ambiguous nature at the least, but there is room for change (or continuous nondetection effects, if necessary  )

Regardless, I'll take a look and see how this fits together, where it fits into the party and the campaign in general, and otherwise how it looks to play.

[Sinfire Titan]

Hmm, I'll look into this (though, the more options I'm presented with, the longer it takes to finalize a build  )

As a side note, would it be worth more to have the crusader's better hit points at first level, or the option of somewhat higher maneuver choices by going Hexblade 5/Crusader 2/etc.? Maybe a slightly different comination, depending. Oh, and also I'd hate to decide to be either Chaotic Good or Chaotic Evil, given alignment restrictions. I was hoping to maintain the morally ambiguous nature at the least, but there is room for change (or continuous nondetection effects, if necessary  )

Regardless, I'll take a look and see how this fits together, where it fits into the party and the campaign in general, and otherwise how it looks to play.

Well, the Warlock has no actual alignment restrictions, and my Hexblade only recommends the non-Good alignments for flavor reasons.

[VennDygrem]

Well, if you go by the book, the Warlock has alignment restrictions of "Any evil or any chaotic" but if you're waiving that, then obviously there are none.
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Also, just for the record, what was your ruling on that last PM I sent you, about the urban companion?
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So, taking a fairly thorough look at what is presented, it looks like that combo is a rather good partial-gestalt Gish, with a handful of low to mid level maneuvers, some decent invocations, and just barely getting 5th level spells by 20th level. Still, despite this, I'm not sure it's what I'm looking for.

[Sinfire Titan]

Also, just for the record, what was your ruling on that last PM I sent you, about the urban companion?
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I said I would be willing to work on a variant of the Ranger's animal companion that was similar to a familiar/AC hybrid.

[VennDygrem]

Also, just for the record, what was your ruling on that last PM I sent you, about the urban companion?
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I said I would be willing to work on a variant of the Ranger's animal companion that was similar to a familiar/AC hybrid.

Sorry, I didn't get any reply.

Anyway, the Urban Companion is already a hybrid of the two. You essentially get an animal off the familiar list, using the wiz/sorc advancement list, except the urban companion gets HP = 3/4 the druid/ranger's instead of half a wiz/sorc, can speak with others of its kind at 1st instead of 7th level, the druid/ranger can speak with animals of the uc's type at 7th, and if it dies, the master doesn't lose XP. It's a smarter creature, rather than a strong one, which serves me a bit better anyway.

[VennDygrem]

So, I seem to be settled on the nice synergy of fixed Warlock and Spellthief, thanks to Sinfire's suggestions.

What I'm not sure of is if it's worth taking Point Blank and Precise Shot as feats. The warlock handbook offers two varying opinions on this. On the one hand, it should be just as useful to a warlock as to a ranger. On the other, the warlock's attacks are ranged touch attacks, so is the penalty for shooting into combat going to matter as much? The feats will only get less useful as I increase in level, as most creatures are still going to have lower touch ACs (though not all will).

So is it worth giving up two feats?

[VennDygrem]

Bump. Don't want to leave the game hanging on me, and I was hoping for a little insight on the whole Point blank shot/precise shot thing.

Also, I'm thinking of taking Obtain/Improved Familiar, probably for an imp, so I can have it help with scouting, utilize UMD in combat for me, etc. It won't be able to take 10 on UMD checks like I can, but it can still be useful for freeing up actions.

I'm somewhat saddened to lose the fantastic save bonuses and hitpoints from the ranger gestalting, and the potential for an urban companion instead of animal companion/familiar, but this combo will be more synergistic and gives some nice abilities. Plus, Sinfire's allowing it to work with psionics in a way, so I'll be able to share powers/spells with the one or two psions and the warmage, sometimes.

Maybe he'll still let me obtain an urban companion, given both the feats Obtain Familiar/Wild Cohort, though it seems as though it would be more powerful than Obtain Familiar, and thus not necessarily a good candidate for becoming a feat.

[VennDygrem]

I decided I liked the idea of the familiar, so I'm going to have a Quasit (since I can't get an imp due to my alignment). Any suggestions for the Alternate form ability? For reference, it gets Alternate Form as supernatural ability usable at will as a standard action, which functions as polymorph cast on itself (CL 12) except it doesn't regain HP and can only assume one or two forms of up to medium size.

The size limitation, I'd say, keeps it from being completely broken, but there are a lot of forms that could be useful. Obviously it doesn't get Su or Sp abilities of its assumed forms, but it does keep its own. It's already a tiny creature, so I probably don't need anything smaller than its normal size for stealth/scouting. Obvious choices would be something I could ride as a mount, or a combat form, though since it won't have many hit points I don't think sending it into combat is a smart move. Maybe a defensive form, or humanoid?

Also, Alternate Form (and polymorph, for that matter) stipulates that you lose your old natural armor bonus in exchange for the new one. However, you keep qualities gained from class levels, so am I right in assuming the natural armor improvement from being a familiar is retained?

[Negative Zero]

Wouldn't it be limited to 3 HD forms, because Polymorph uses CL or HD, whichever is less?

[VennDygrem]

I'm not entirely sure what the limitations are, but technically the familiar's HD are equal to my Character Level for purposes of spells and effects dependent on HD. So, that technically limits it to 6 or 7 HD, though it may still be 3 depending on the interpretation. Can it choose one or two new forms when it gains HD, replacing the old ones? I'm not sure.

Otherwise, that's still 3HD, and there are still several creatures to choose from.

[Prime32]

Could you improve that with Practiced Spellcaster?

[VennDygrem]

My caster level is already 7 (or more? from a convo with Sinfire) thanks to a special houseruled Master Spellthief feat. Practiced spellcaster doesn't improve it above your own HD. I said 6 or 7 because I'm not sure what level would count as the one I got the familiar at, and if that has any bearing on the limit of HD it can assume, or if it's based on its base abilities pre-familiarization.

If it is 3HD, I could see if a variant of natural bond could increase it, but really, what are the big differences here?

If its Alternate Form ability worked exactly like polymorph, it wouldn't matter, but it specifically states it can only assume one or two forms. This means one or two forms, and that's it, probably forever. The exact specifics are kind of fuzzy.

I guess I might need to ask Sinfire for a ruling on what to base AF's HD cap on before I figure out what I can select. In the mean-time, any suggestions of 1-7HD forms? Quasits are outsiders, so that gets opened up as well. \o/

[VennDygrem]

Instead of spending two feats on an Improved familiar, which may or may not have alternative alternate forms open to it (based on PM to Sinfire), should I just go with Leadership and have a spellcaster cohort? XD

I could steal spells from them freely, and I don't lose XP if they die. Or, I could try to get a monstrous cohort if need-be.

Still, quasit has flight and invisibility at will and can scout for me. Decisions, decisions. >_>

[VennDygrem]

So, I'm going to go with Leadership, effectively giving me a spell-battery so I have a dedicated source of spell-stealing, when we're going up against non-spellcasters anyway. The Cohort could be anything, and if I've got things right, I should have a 5th level cohort and 5 1st level followers. I'm thinking three Buomman Adepts with Nonverbal Spell, and two Gray Elf Magewrights with Precocious Apprentice. Ability scores won't be amazing, assuming elite array for the cohort and non-elite array for followers, as per this page (creatures with PC classes are suggested to have the elite array, while creatures with NPC classes are suggested to have the nonelite array), but should be passable. Alternatively, I could have them all be Experts and have an army of skill-monkeys.

As for the cohort, the most likely choices are Wizard, Cleric, or Druid (which would be like having a spell-battery AND an animal companion! ). The party is likely to have an artificer now, so I don't need to have one following me around. Alternatively, I could have a monstrous cohort with hit dice and LA if there's anything worthwhile with good SLA's or other abilities.

Are there any dedicated threads about Leadership/Cohorts/followers? I've done a little digging, but I'm not coming up with much.

[Sinfire Titan]

So, I'm going to go with Leadership, effectively giving me a spell-battery so I have a dedicated source of spell-stealing, when we're going up against non-spellcasters anyway. The Cohort could be anything, and if I've got things right, I should have a 5th level cohort and 5 1st level followers. I'm thinking three Buomman Adepts with Nonverbal Spell, and two Gray Elf Magewrights with Precocious Apprentice. Ability scores won't be amazing, assuming elite array for the cohort and non-elite array for followers, as per this page (creatures with PC classes are suggested to have the elite array, while creatures with NPC classes are suggested to have the nonelite array), but should be passable. Alternatively, I could have them all be Experts and have an army of skill-monkeys.

As for the cohort, the most likely choices are Wizard, Cleric, or Druid (which would be like having a spell-battery AND an animal companion! ). The party is likely to have an artificer now, so I don't need to have one following me around. Alternatively, I could have a monstrous cohort with hit dice and LA if there's anything worthwhile with good SLA's or other abilities.

Are there any dedicated threads about Leadership/Cohorts/followers? I've done a little digging, but I'm not coming up with much.

I do have one request for you: Don't chain Leadership. It gets a bit ridiculous, and I may have to collapse the rest of Sharn if you do.

[VennDygrem]

No worries, even I think chaining Leadership is a bad idea (not to mention a bad investment overall- Sure you get a ton of people following you around, but they're more than a little squishy.) I could go with all those tips on maximizing Leadership to get higher level followers, but honestly it's not a good investment of resources.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

If you're still taking advice, sprinkle on the Unseelie Fey template. 

It's like Parmesan: a cheese that goes on anything.

[VennDygrem]

Is this advice for the warlock//spellthief, or for the cohort?

Also, not sure how stuff from Dragon magazine/compendium is handled in the game.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Is this advice for the warlock//spellthief, or for the cohort?

Also, not sure how stuff from Dragon magazine/compendium is handled in the game.

Either.  Both.  It's the finest of +0 templates, and good rolls can really help a warlock.  Spellthief casting is, IIRC, cha based, so you'll be wanting that.
Fey type, -2 str +2 dex  -2 con +2cha, vastly improved DR compared to a warlock's, and a massive debuffing of anyone who stands next to you (-cha morale penalty to all saves, 5' radius), chance of wings/vision.

Basically no downside.