|
Kuroimaken
|
 |
« on: May 04, 2009, 08:41:00 PM » |
|
So here's what I'm thinking.
Versatile Spellcaster gives you entry into pretty much any casting PrC a full caster level earlier, right? The funniest part is, it never specifies it only applies to one casting class or even to arcane/divine spells.
Enter the Favored Soul or Spirit Shaman left, Sorcerer or whathaveyou right. Enter Mystic Theurge center.
Profit? What's the best way to make this work? The biggest problem with MT is that you have nowhere to go after 10th level. How do we solve that?
I realize this is probably silly and/or someone already mentioned it, but I wanted to get it out there.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Sinfire Titan
|
|
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 08:43:21 PM » |
|
Drudi 3/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge +2
Entry gained through Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist combo (meaning you need Wizard levels first). This is better than the Sor/Favored Soul version.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Wih
Ring-Tailed Lemur
Posts: 46
|
|
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2009, 05:22:37 AM » |
|
Arcane Heirophant entry could be made through Bamboo Spirit Folk. X1/Y2/Mystic Theurge6/Arcane Heirophant10/Mystic Theurge+1 will give 19/18th casting. But in the end, dual-progressing Ur-priest and Sublime Chord is still more effective.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
You're reading a genuine, 100% natural Wih post - they say they're as rare as hen's teeth from a Chicken Infestee's pocket. Oooh, aaah! </unlurk>
|
|
|
|
Kuroimaken
|
|
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2009, 05:30:08 AM » |
|
Drudi 3/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge +2
Entry gained through Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist combo (meaning you need Wizard levels first). This is better than the Sor/Favored Soul version.
I thought Precocious Apprentice was Sorcerer only? Exactly what do you mean by this combo? Arcane Heirophant entry could be made through Bamboo Spirit Folk. X1/Y2/Mystic Theurge6/Arcane Heirophant10/Mystic Theurge+1 will give 19/18th casting. But in the end, dual-progressing Ur-priest and Sublime Chord is still more effective.
Why Bamboo Spirit Folk, specifically? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Brainpiercing
|
|
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2009, 05:58:37 AM » |
|
Drudi 3/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge +2
Entry gained through Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist combo (meaning you need Wizard levels first). This is better than the Sor/Favored Soul version.
I thought Precocious Apprentice was Sorcerer only? Exactly what do you mean by this combo? Versatile Spellcaster is Sorc only. Prec. Apprentice is the crappy feat that will leave you with a bonus 2nd level slot after your early entry. Personally I would agree that a prepared casting combo is better, due to earlier spell access. But you can make either work, I guess. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Sinfire Titan
|
|
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2009, 06:12:33 AM » |
|
Drudi 3/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge +2
Entry gained through Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist combo (meaning you need Wizard levels first). This is better than the Sor/Favored Soul version.
I thought Precocious Apprentice was Sorcerer only? Exactly what do you mean by this combo? Arcane Heirophant entry could be made through Bamboo Spirit Folk. X1/Y2/Mystic Theurge6/Arcane Heirophant10/Mystic Theurge+1 will give 19/18th casting. But in the end, dual-progressing Ur-priest and Sublime Chord is still more effective.
Why Bamboo Spirit Folk, specifically? PA, as Brainpiercing said, is the crappy feat that gives you a single 2nd level spell at 1st level. Combine that with Focused Specialist, which eats the slot the feat grants, and you get 2 2nd level spells/day of your specialty school. Neither of these spells require a CL check, they can be any spell from your specialty school, and they arguably qualify you for the "2nd Level Arcane Spells" requirement. Bamboo Spirit Folk is for the AH's entry requirements. They get the Druid's class feature as a racial trait. It's debatable though, as AH specifies the class feature named Woodland Stride, but Spirit Folk gets the racial trait named Woodland Stride. It comes down to whether or not you feel the words "class feature" can be replaced with "racial trait" or not. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Omen of Peace
Hong Kong
Posts: 1053
Wise Madman
|
|
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2009, 09:33:36 AM » |
|
Arcane Heirophant entry could be made through Bamboo Spirit Folk. X1/Y2/Mystic Theurge6/Arcane Heirophant10/Mystic Theurge+1 will give 19/18th casting. But in the end, dual-progressing Ur-priest and Sublime Chord is still more effective.
+1 for Ur-Priest. If you can access it it's the golden standard IMO. I like Sublime Chord but it blooms much later - so that it looks good in level 20 builds but is not as good in practice. Versatile Spellcaster, as T_G pointed out in another thread not long ago, borders on the "it doesn't say you can't" when applied across class boundaries. Similarly, Precocious Apprentice + Focused Specialist has always seemed strange to me: if you get the 2 extra slots - which come "in addition to those normally granted to a specialist wizard" - doesn't it mean you would have already gotten a specialist slot just by taking Precocious Apprentice ? (The wording of specialization is "A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day." i.e. ...it doesn't say you can't.) I see multiple interpretations here. @Sinfire: equating racial trait and class feature is laughable, if we're talking about the RAW. A nice DM could agree to it. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 10:51:23 AM by Omen of Peace »
|
Logged
|
Silanah heard their songs and prayers. And she watched. Sometimes mortals did indeed forget. Sometimes, mortals needed… reminding…
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson
|
|
|
|
Stratovarius
|
|
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2009, 09:42:58 AM » |
|
I'll post a link to my old build Optimizing The Worst, because it uses early entry tricks to get into the MT and Arcane Heirophant. It was an attempt to create a useful healer/warmage combination. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Brainpiercing
|
|
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2009, 10:23:54 AM » |
|
If you can get by with Sorc1/Favoured Soul1/MT10 I have to say the spontaneous variant suddenly looks viable. This will probably be enough for a lot of campaigns, too. There is the ominous True Necromancer to top that off, but it's.... uh. It also requires one level of CC or something else for Turn Undead and the Death domain, so you lose yet another spellcasting level. Still, you'll have 18 casting levels at lvl 20, and 9th level spells. Not as good as Ur-priest, but Ur-priest will get little love from lots of DMs anyway, while I think this variant doesn't have terrible chances to fly even in sub-optimised groups.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Nunkuruji
|
|
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2009, 11:11:28 AM » |
|
Alternative Source Spell is always fun  I've allowed one of my players to do the following Totem Druid (tiger) 3 / F. Conj. Wizard 1 / Mystic Theurge 4 / Arcane Hierophant 10 / Mystic Theurge 2 Otherworldly Practiced Spellcaster Alternative Source Spell (MT qualifier) Companion Spellbond Natural Bond Basically going for jack-of-all swiss-army knife Totem Druid from DR335 is taken to maintain a decent combat form and on-par animal companion throughout the levels. If starting at high levels you could have a wildshape amulet, shapechange, etc. anyways. If you do buy into both Alternative Source Spell and Precocious Apprentice, you might be able to do something like Wiz 1 / Clr|Drd 1 / Y / MT Precocious Apprentice Alternative Source Spell Prepare an arcane or divine version of X spell in your 2nd level PA spell slot. I've always enjoyed the simplicity of this build Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 / Arcane X If you throw in Alternative Source Spell here, you possibly could DMM your wizard spells if you decide to prep them as divine  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
ksbsnowowl
|
|
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2009, 11:32:04 AM » |
|
Forgive me, where is Versatile Spellcaster?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Kuroimaken
|
|
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2009, 04:13:30 PM » |
|
Forgive me, where is Versatile Spellcaster?
Races of the Dragon. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Sinfire Titan
|
|
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2009, 04:17:19 PM » |
|
Similarly, Precocious Apprentice + Focused Specialist has always seemed strange to me: if you get the 2 extra slots - which come "in addition to those normally granted to a specialist wizard" - doesn't it mean you would have already gotten a specialist slot just by taking Precocious Apprentice ? (The wording of specialization is "A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day." i.e. ...it doesn't say you can't.) I see multiple interpretations here.
@Sinfire: equating racial trait and class feature is laughable, if we're talking about the RAW. A nice DM could agree to it.
I agree with both of those points, but leaving the Precocious Apprentice slot alone may actually hurt you (the CL check may be low, but you are much better off if you can avoid making the check all together). Focused Specialist removes the odds of failure from that slot, so you end up a few points ahead. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Endarire
|
|
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2009, 04:34:15 PM » |
|
Would a regular specialist benefit from Precocious Apprentice, just with fewer slots?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future. Speaking of which: Don't even need TO for this. Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu]. Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"
|
|
|
|
Sinfire Titan
|
|
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2009, 07:46:33 PM » |
|
Would a regular specialist benefit from Precocious Apprentice, just with fewer slots?
Yes, he would, but Focused Specialist allows for more variety in his 2nd level slots. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Caedrus
Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
Posts: 100
|
|
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2009, 01:45:28 AM » |
|
Speaking as someone who has spent far too much time on Mystic Theurges, I recommend going here; particularly Post #5. Simply put, Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell (you must have Heighten Spell) is one of very few WotC endorsed ways to get into PrCs a lot earlier, at least those requiring caster levels. There are other methods - the Illumian, Sanctum Spell - and those which have been (with all respect) noted as being less than legal (I'm looking at Precocious Apprentice here). But then, I am biased. Have a read through the Mystic Theurge Guidebook - it should clarify this matter somewhat. I am always up for (friendly) debate on the matter. C. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Goodnight, Gentlemen; and Thank You.
|
|
|
|
|
8w_gremlin
Ring-Tailed Lemur
Posts: 13
|
|
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2009, 09:18:03 PM » |
|
You can use Dread Necromancer or Beguiler too.
Versatile Spellcaster (RoDr pg 101) is applicable to any spontaneous caster
you still need the 6 ranks in know(arcane) and know(religion) which you can't get until 3rd level.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
DavidWL
|
|
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2009, 03:54:15 AM » |
|
You can use Dread Necromancer or Beguiler too.
Versatile Spellcaster (RoDr pg 101) is applicable to any spontaneous caster
you still need the 6 ranks in know(arcane) and know(religion) which you can't get until 3rd level.
+1 to all points. A beguiler or dread necromancer / spirit shaman would be pretty cool. In addition, beguiler/dread necromancer/warmage/witch (from dmg) are especially good with versatile spellcaster + heighten. Best, David |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Some Cool Quotes: Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.
-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better. The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play. I often have to remind people not to underrate divination. The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
|
|
|
Omen of Peace
Hong Kong
Posts: 1053
Wise Madman
|
|
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2009, 05:47:28 AM » |
|
Why especially good ? At least some of those spontaneous casters have the following wording:
"When a beguiler/warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the beguiler/warmage’s spell list."
So you don't get access to all their higher-level known spells.
But you may have been referring to something else ?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Silanah heard their songs and prayers. And she watched. Sometimes mortals did indeed forget. Sometimes, mortals needed… reminding…
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson
|
|
|
|
