What if [Casters in 3.5]

[woodenbandman]

I think that spontaneous casters should gain their highest level spells at 16th level, while vancians should wait until 17th or even 18th level. They would lose ground at level 10 (if 1 level behind) or at levels 6 and 15 (if 2 levels). Would this help balance out vancians?

[Risada]

I don't think it would really balance it out, but spontaneous caster would suck less...

[SiggyDevil]

I hold Arcana Unearthed as the role model for full casters.

• Vancian to ready your spell list for the day.
• Spontaneous to use it.

Works even better with a "mana pool" but rather than pricing spells by level just have them all as "-1 mana".

A large amount of "mana" to begin, such as 10 at level 1, and then adding +1 per even level allows even noob Wizards to avoid whining for that 8-hour nap after every combat.
Then, by level 20 they have 20 spells per day (if you want such a frequency) which isn't anywhere near the normal amount for D&D full casters.

[Kerrick]

Just give spontaneous casters the same progression as vancians, and let them use metamagic freely. The flexibility vancians have over spontaneous casters more than balances out those two benefits on its own.

[woodenbandman]

I hold Arcana Unearthed as the role model for full casters.

• Vancian to ready your spell list for the day.
• Spontaneous to use it.

Works even better with a "mana pool" but rather than pricing spells by level just have them all as "-1 mana".

A large amount of "mana" to begin, such as 10 at level 1, and then adding +1 per even level allows even noob Wizards to avoid whining for that 8-hour nap after every combat.
Then, by level 20 they have 20 spells per day (if you want such a frequency) which isn't anywhere near the normal amount for D&D full casters.

But then you have Gate, Shapechange, and Time Stop x 20. Maybe add in the table of spells/level/day as well? So like 20 spells but only x of level Y, maximum?

[DaveoftheRave]

But then you have Gate, Shapechange, and Time Stop x 20. Maybe add in the table of spells/level/day as well? So like 20 spells but only x of level Y, maximum?

Hmmm...

So what we could do is have X amount of spells of each level per day.

It's brilliant.

[Vinom]

But then you have Gate, Shapechange, and Time Stop x 20. Maybe add in the table of spells/level/day as well? So like 20 spells but only x of level Y, maximum?

Hmmm...

So what we could do is have X amount of spells of each level per day.

It's brilliant.

Thats what we already have

[SiggyDevil]

But then you have Gate, Shapechange, and Time Stop x 20. Maybe add in the table of spells/level/day as well? So like 20 spells but only x of level Y, maximum?

I thought of that too but it seems more of a problem within spells itself.

For instance, if you take similar level spells used in the same frequency:
• Freedom
• Astral Projection
• Refuge
... the change is not as drastic, no?

You could instead have spell use limited as by the spells each to their own, a number that does not change but does vary by spell power.
• Wish 1/day
• Shapechange 3/day
• Gate 1/hour (within own plane) or 1/day (to call beings)

Assuming all spells were roughly in balance with each other (ha! haha!) I still believe a larger spell pool at low levels and a merely slightly increased pool at higher levels works better.
Combined with roughly a third of spells as at-will and another third recharging conditionally/per encounter/per hour, there's no more situation of young Wizards becoming sucky archers when they use the last (of 3) spells for the day.

[Chemus]

I really like the spell list/spellpoints system. Recharge is a lot of paperwork that I don't want. Siggy does have a point that the greater issue is with the problem spells.



Make Gate into two spells; Greater Planeshift and Call Being.

Timestop: de-randomize the duration and average it out: 2.5+1 = 3.5 rounds, rounding down to 3. Chaining TS would then only net you one round per TS except for the last casting, gaining you two rounds. I can't think of a better nerf.

Shapechange: instead of being able to alternate shapes at will, you get one shape. You have to recast to gain another shape.

Wish: Take a page out of 2nd ed., make wish exhaust the caster for a day. Limit the GP limit of created items, whether Magical or non-magical, to the stated material component limit; 10,000 GP.



Also, if a creature makes its save versus a spell where the save is to negate all effect, it's immune to that caster's castings of that spell for ten minutes. 24H is asinine, and all those immunities, from Trumpet Archons et. at., should be reduced to the same ten minute span.

[SiggyDevil]

Also, if a creature makes its save versus a spell where the save is to negate all effect, it's immune to that caster's castings of that spell for ten minutes. 24H is asinine, and all those immunities, from Trumpet Archons et. at., should be reduced to the same ten minute span.

Yeah that's good too. Today I was mentally comparing Warhammer's "invulnerability saves" to saves in D&D.
It would be a good idea to provide dedicated warriors the ability to absolutely resist a certain number of attacks each round or combat, as well as the 'speed types' such as Rogue and Bard to outright dodge and charge farther and faster than, say, Dimension Door. It's supernatural qualities, sure, and somewhat bordering on animu levels of unreal combat.

For example:
Wizard casts Imprison
Fighter fails save, uses Deny as an Immediate Action.
Deny roll passes.
Imprison won't work on Fighter until the next encounter.. or day.

This talk of spell revision is always going on, every forum, all the time. As long as D&D exists I really don't think we'll see an end of the "Let's fix spellcasting!" proposals.
4e seems to have tackled most of that overpowered crap but even now they are unraveling it with every further splatbook.