The Devil Went Down to Georgia: The (Arbitrarily Large)th Level Spell Slot

[jameswilliamogle]

I'm not suggesting that the spell slots are used from one class to prepare another class's spells at all (this is the general case).  In general, a dual-caster can't use their spell slots to prepare spells from each side's spells known all willy-nilly, I agree.

What I'm saying is that you could break up a higher level Wizard slot into lower level Beguiler slots (ie slots not spells).  Arcane Manipulation (poorly worded) lets one break up a high level slot into lower level slots; no requirement on where the original slot came from or which class the new ones go.  I believe the specific feat overrides the general rule.

Versatile Spellcaster only says you use two lower level slots to cast a single higher level slot known.  Since one knows spells from multiple casting classes, this allows them to use lower level spell slots from any source to cast one level higher for any spell they know.  The specific (poorly worded) feat overrides the general, right?

I'm just trying to understand it better; its all TO already, imo.  But the latter thing w/ Versatile Spellcaster has implications for some of the newer dual/triple threat builds.

EDIT: Tried to rephrase things to make it clearer what my thinking is.  Italicized "I".

[Tleilaxu_Ghola]

/shrug

"TO" is not a license for ignoring context.  While it may not say wizard slot exactly, you've got a huge pile of circumstantial evidence saying that they are talking about wizard slots.  I used to advocate literal rules lawyering.  Now it's just retarded to me.  If that's what you want to do, be my guest, but I'm not going to ignore context.

As for versatile spell caster, again you're trying to split hairs on the vagueness of context regarding the words "spell slot".  One interpretation is simply: spell slots belong to a class.  Spells known belong to a class.  When an ability references anything within a class, the results are class specific unless otherwise noted.  So, if you use spell slots belonging to one class, you can only cast spells belonging to another class if the ability explicitly allows it.  If it doesn't allow it, assume that the spell must belong to the class's spells known from which the spell slots originated.  This seems pretty obvious and fundamental to me.

Again, though, if you want to go by literal rules interpretation without thinking about context, be my guest.

EDIT: I believe Caelic had something to say about this to the effect of "just because it doesn't say you can't be born with wings and a prehensile tail as a human, doesn't mean you CAN either".

[jameswilliamogle]

In the interest of "full disclosure" I've always been on the PC's side of things w.r.t. those arguments (though I don't think this is a "prehensile tail" case). 

I don't think there's that much context with these two feats, either though.  Well, I guess since we're talking about them:

[spoiler=Arcane Manipulation]You are learned in the arcane ways of Netheril, where masters of magic once molded and shaped arcane energy to their own will.
Prerequisit: Wizard level 1st.
Benefit: When you prepare spells, you can break down up to three existing arcane spell slots to create a specified number of lower-level spell slots. (A 0-level spell counts as 1/2 level for this purpose, so a 1st-level spell slot could be broken into two 0-level spell slots.)  The sum of the levels of all the new spell slots you can create in this manner is otherwise unlimited.  Spell slots that you break down into multiple lower-level slots remain that way until the next time you prepare spells, at which time you can choose to restore your spell slots to normal or break them up again.
Normal: A character can always choose to use a higher-level spell slot to prepare a lower-level spell, but any "remainder" spell levels are lost.

Here's the table text: Prereq Wizard level 1st,  Benefit Break down higher-level spell slots into lower-level ones.

Only context is in the prereq.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Versatile Spellcaster]VERSATILE SPELLCASTER
You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher.
Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast spells.
Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

Table text: Ability to spontaneously cast spells Use two lower-level slots to cast a higher-level spell.

Again, only context is in the prereq.[/spoiler]
I say let the DM decide.

[Negative Zero]

I don't see anything preventing you from, say, using a Sorcerer and a Favored Soul slot to cast a higher level spell. As long as they're the same level.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Just snag Arcane Preparation and Wizard 1 if you're a Sorcerer.

A Swiftblade 10 could have Time Stop for AL rounds. Long enough for him to sleep and get that spell slot again, surely.

Worth noticing.  Any arguments with that, TG?

[jameswilliamogle]

I don't see anything preventing you from, say, using a Sorcerer and a Favored Soul slot to cast a higher level spell. As long as they're the same level.

Right, via Versatile Spellcaster.  No reason, then, that they could use the same spell slots to cast a higher level Wizard spell that they know, either.  Or Wizard slots to go the other way.  Cross-casting actually makes theurgic builds somewhat worth a damn.

[Tleilaxu_Ghola]

/sigh

there's nothing preventing one from reading it literally, no.  I already said that a literal interpretation of the rules is going to let you do ... a whole lot of stupid things.  The context I was referring to (in the case of arcane manipulation) was the fact that modifications to the spell slots can only occur during the preparation period, which strongly indicates that these slots are prepared slots, at the very least.  In my mind that context COMBINED with the wizard pre-req makes it obvious enough that they're talking about wizard slots for anything but intellectual masturbation.

Versatile spell caster is even worse for ambiguity, but the burden of proof remains: unless it explicitly states that spell slots from another class can be used to cast a spell from a different spell list, I will maintain that this feat doesn't allow anything of the sort.

Of course, if you wanna say "well my DM's not a jack ass and he'd allow this" or some such stuff, that's fine.  If I were the DM I'd pimp slap you up side the head for even asking for a spell slot beyond what you could cast normally, let alone theurgic interpretations of the versatile spell caster feat.

[jameswilliamogle]

Yah, OK.  Its not enough for me to agree, I guess.  And highly dependent on the DM either way.  Particularly when it comes to spellcasting, its hard for me to figure out what makes sense for the game.

[Brainpiercing]

Uh, as a small aside, Wizards don't have "Spells Known". They have a spellbook. You can write any level of spells into your spellbook, even if you can't cast them yet. And if you have a 9th level spell in there then you only need a slot to cast it. Where is the problem?  All you need is the ability score.
The Arcane Manipulation trick works perfectly with up to 9th level spells, as soon as you have one in your spellbook to use.

[PhaedrusXY]

Uh, as a small aside, Wizards don't have "Spells Known". They have a spellbook. You can write any level of spells into your spellbook, even if you can't cast them yet. And if you have a 9th level spell in there then you only need a slot to cast it. Where is the problem?  All you need is the ability score.
The Arcane Manipulation trick works perfectly with up to 9th level spells, as soon as you have one in your spellbook to use.

There are a few places where the rules refer to the "spells known" of a wizard. For example, the Uncanny Forethought feat says you can use it to spontaneously cast "any spell that you know", not "any spell in your spellbook".

[Tleilaxu_Ghola]

Uh, as a small aside, Wizards don't have "Spells Known". They have a spellbook. You can write any level of spells into your spellbook, even if you can't cast them yet. And if you have a 9th level spell in there then you only need a slot to cast it. Where is the problem?  All you need is the ability score.
The Arcane Manipulation trick works perfectly with up to 9th level spells, as soon as you have one in your spellbook to use.

Yes that works and I've said as much.    Here's where I expressed that sentiment:

But anyways, as long as you're making the spell craft checks to put high level spells into your spell book, and you're filling wizard spell slots with wizard spells you should be good.

The point of contention was filling those slots with non-wizard spells or at least converting wizard slots into slots usable by other classes.  The implications of filing slots belonging to a wizard class with spells from other classes extend beyond the trick at hand, which is why I've been exceptionally cautious.

[PhaedrusXY]

I'd say they have basically nothing to do with the trick at hand, and the argument over them has derailed the thread...

[Brainpiercing]

Uh, as a small aside, Wizards don't have "Spells Known". They have a spellbook. You can write any level of spells into your spellbook, even if you can't cast them yet. And if you have a 9th level spell in there then you only need a slot to cast it. Where is the problem?  All you need is the ability score.
The Arcane Manipulation trick works perfectly with up to 9th level spells, as soon as you have one in your spellbook to use.

There are a few places where the rules refer to the "spells known" of a wizard. For example, the Uncanny Forethought feat says you can use it to spontaneously cast "any spell that you know", not "any spell in your spellbook".

Uh... yeah, Read Magic anyone? So basically Uncanny Forethought means you can cast Read Magic spontaneously... OR perhaps a spell you know from another class?

Now if you wonder to these realms of TO you SHOULD interpret the text as such...

However, I have to admit I missed the last page of arguments by accident, so I'm sorry that I repeated something that had been said.