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Author Topic: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts  (Read 3204 times)
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2009, 02:07:17 AM »

Um... sentient undead have (or are) souls (according to the spell magic jar). 
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« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2009, 06:11:44 AM »

Um... sentient undead have (or are) souls (according to the spell magic jar). 

I would tend to agree to this, with the addition that they obviously don't die, AND their soul can't leave the undead body by peaceful means. Of course, that is entirely the same situation you have while being mortal, because it is to be expected that the devils will want to ensure your death and destruction by a certain time.

I don't, however, see a large problem with killing the devil you pledged your soul to in Hell. I mean why not?

However, I think the solutions presented don't look so bad, with the obvious underwhelmingness of the Alienist PrC. However, if all Pseudonatural templates were to be replaced with Half-fiend or so.....Smile.
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Tleilaxu_Ghola
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« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2009, 10:55:51 AM »

Um... sentient undead have (or are) souls (according to the spell magic jar). 

I would tend to agree to this, with the addition that they obviously don't die, AND their soul can't leave the undead body by peaceful means. Of course, that is entirely the same situation you have while being mortal, because it is to be expected that the devils will want to ensure your death and destruction by a certain time.

I don't, however, see a large problem with killing the devil you pledged your soul to in Hell. I mean why not?

However, I think the solutions presented don't look so bad, with the obvious underwhelmingness of the Alienist PrC. However, if all Pseudonatural templates were to be replaced with Half-fiend or so.....Smile.
Regarding undead.  You touched on the basics of a sentient undead's soul.  I never said you are walking around without A soul, but you aren't certainly walking around with your original, positive energy powered one.  The interpretation that the DM is using is that your positive energy soul has left the body, but your mind is magically brought back and powered by a new, negative energy soul.  My only problem with this is that you're basically saying mortals are capable of creating souls, just not with positive energy, implying that there's a broken symmetry.  /shrug  On the flip side, physics is ALL ABOUT finding broken symmetries, so it could make sense.  The alternative is that your positive energy soul is converted to negative energy.  I'm not sure that's any easier than the other interpretation, as it'd be like saying you could convert protons into electrons.


I actually played this out last night, and things are subsequently a good deal more clear now.  For example, killing the imp who corrupted me is supposedly a pretty terrible idea, especially in Hell, as he told me he was very much an integrated part of the hierarchy, as would be expected, and claimed he had connections which would make that consideration fatal.  At this time, I don't have much supporting evidence to go against that claim, nor would going to Hell and coming out alive be very feasible.

The pact was negotiated as: 3 years time + 6 months, minimum, for every successful pact certain made with an individual of appreciable local power, and +1 month. minimum, for every pact insidious made with an individual of appreciable local power.  Positive modifications to the time added or material compensation could come from mass conversions of people toward LE alignment.  For example, getting the king to sign a Pact Certain and then encourage evil laws would predispose a great many people towards LE.

------------------

Anyways, regarding alienist.  Yea, the class is somewhat lack-luster.  Actually, it's almost worse than straight wizard for my character in some regards, particularly the diplomacy penalties and wisdom penalties, which are both an important part of my character's schtick.  Since I have some license to change it up, I'm hoping to edit out those pieces.  Frankly, my character has enough of the insanity flavor, what with Severe Depravity and all.  I don't need more.  And if she's going to be running around with an imp, making smooth deals with mortals... yea.  We'll see.  The idea is just to have a class with a transformation to outsider and full caster progression.  If I gained nothing else, it'd be alright.  We'll see what I manage to get approved.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 11:01:53 AM by Tleilaxu_Ghola » Logged
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« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2009, 11:23:06 AM »

Quote
The alternative is that your positive energy soul is converted to negative energy.  I'm not sure that's any easier than the other interpretation, as it'd be like saying you could convert protons into electrons.
Actually, in my eyes the "soul" isn't converted at all, it stays entirely the same. The fact that there are mindless undead means that Negative Energy can drive a body even without anything else. It remains a fact that there are no positive energy zombies, but that MAY just be due to the mindset of those people who create zombies, and the general alignment bias of the planes. Now the soul in the D&D sense is the mind and its essence, and all its experience, or something like that. I may be adding a bit of my own personal interpretation to this. So you can either put that in a postive energy driven body or into a negative energy driven one. The result is the same.

I would say when you make Outsiders undead then you might have to convert a soul, but that's a touchy subject, anyway. I tend to assume that it works, but now how exactly.

I also think that much of this is merely flavour, but I like to work with it to deduce answers to certain questions.
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Tleilaxu_Ghola
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« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2009, 11:41:47 AM »

Pretty sure resurrection doesn't bring a sentient undead back to unlife.  So I'm tempted to say that no, there is no positive energy soul to an undead.  It's either gone or converted.
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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2009, 12:19:18 PM »

Pretty sure resurrection doesn't bring a sentient undead back to unlife.  So I'm tempted to say that no, there is no positive energy soul to an undead.  It's either gone or converted.

What about Deathless? I'm partially unaware of all the intricacies of their mechanics, but far as I'm aware they're positive energy-powered undead...
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« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2009, 12:56:15 PM »

Pretty sure resurrection doesn't bring a sentient undead back to unlife.  So I'm tempted to say that no, there is no positive energy soul to an undead.  It's either gone or converted.
Ah, but resurrection is a biased spell.

All I'm saying is that the soul is not what's "powering" a body, because you can have mindless undead, or things like constructs, where it's questionable what is powering them, and whether they have a soul. So what powers the body (positive or negative energery) is entirely separate from the soul, which doesn't have any intrinsic positive or negative property in that respect. At least that's my view, probably someone can find some rules text to contradict me in places.
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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2009, 01:23:31 PM »

Seems to me your best bet is to use a separate entity to promote your growth post soul loss-lemure transformation process. Preferrably, an intelligent entity that is guaranteed to aid you and only you - in other words, you have to craft a construct, an undead, SOMETHING that isn't limited by aging issues and that is undeniably tied to your soul.

Naturally, the worst issue is that constructs tend to make for poor allies as far as providing you with external resources - they're only good at dealing with physical threats. Undead, on the other hand, tend to be targetted because of their very nature. I think that you would do best not to rely on contingent spells for everything, in the unlikely event that someone actively tries to prevent your demonic ascension after your death.
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Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/


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I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!

The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #68 on: April 26, 2009, 03:26:35 PM »

Magic jar has the "life force" being powered by the energy, not necessarily made of it, so whatever...

And besides, you'd expect that conjuration(healing) spells wouldn't restore an undead to unlife.  The school deals with positive energy, not negative, so... duh.  (as an aside, the weirdness of healing spells not being necromancy is something I've house-ruled IMC.)

Anyways, as far as I can tell the resurrection spell has three functions
a) Repair the body
b) Add some positive energy
c) Grab the soul and stick it back in.

Death effects and old age interfere with a), undeath interferes with b), and mindless interferes with c).  There are some specialized spells to resurrect undead to unlife, and I imagine that those primarily differ in part b).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 05:19:50 PM by The_Mad_Linguist » Logged

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« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2009, 04:47:50 PM »

If you reach 9th level spells and haven't banned Enchantment, just Mindrape a bunch of devils into working for you even after you become a lemure.
I'm not even sure I'm responding to the most current strategy...
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skydragonknight
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« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2009, 02:53:51 PM »

The alternative is that your positive energy soul is converted to negative energy.  I'm not sure that's any easier than the other interpretation, as it'd be like saying you could convert protons into electrons.

This is actually more consistent with the existing rules thanks to the Tomb Tainted Soul feat.
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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2009, 03:38:44 PM »

Doesn't Libris Mortis address this somewhere?
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For proof, look here:

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Get yours.

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!

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