Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook

[nijineko]

ooooh. nice catch. the one example given in thought bottle also has the 'not by any means' clause. thank you for that reference. based on that i am probably going to have to revise my opinion of the interpretation. wow. that really is quite high in potential abuse.

like yourself, i'm not sure i could in good conscience allow that usage in game.

[Kormoran]

A question on this matter: is there any rule about reduced ECL mixing 2 template/species both with ECL 1+?

In some cases, it's fine to sum up correctives granted the power gained to not overwrite each other.
On other adding a template is may be reasonable from a Story POW but unfeasible without a reduced ECL modifier.
A simple example: Unholy Scion is a powerful template, finely fitting a lot of races and RP situations... but with some it's not sinergic... a unholy scion drow will be at ECL +7 (!) while the drow side will be giving really nothing aside a couple more SLA (weak too).

So: any regulation on this matter?
Ty.

[Widow]

A question on this matter: is there any rule about reduced ECL mixing 2 template/species both with ECL 1+?

In some cases, it's fine to sum up correctives granted the power gained to not overwrite each other.
On other adding a template is may be reasonable from a Story POW but unfeasible without a reduced ECL modifier.
A simple example: Unholy Scion is a powerful template, finely fitting a lot of races and RP situations... but with some it's not sinergic... a unholy scion drow will be at ECL +7 (!) while the drow side will be giving really nothing aside a couple more SLA (weak too).

So: any regulation on this matter?
Ty.

Unfortunately, to my knowledge the answer is no.  The only option you have is to make a combined template and run it through Savage species's acid test, but that is totally DM dependent.  Also everyone is going to have a different opinion on what the proper LA should be depending on your optimization skills and book sources.

I know in my current group the DM has determined the werewolf template one player has and the Gloura race for my character was too powerful .  The werewolf template is pretty weak and I would never take it unless there was a RP reason.  On the other hand the Gloura is good, but when I was forced to convert to human the power of my sublime chord build greatly increased and everything lost was easily restored with additional spell progression.

In the end you basically end up with a handful of templates and races that are worth playing despite the LA, and even less for spell casters.  Level buy-off expands this list, but in games I have only ever seen it applied to the already short list of worthy templates to make them even more powerful.

[nijineko]

the answer might be yes. if i understand your question correctly. which i'm not sure i did.

the rules i summarized indicate that all inherited templates are converted to applied templates. they retain their special entry requirements, but can now be acquired mid-campaign. also, the templates given are broken down into levels. they do not have to all be taken at the same time, nor do you have to start off with the full LA. nor do you have to finish any given template. by inference, any template could be converted to a leveled format; however, this will require dm input and approval. is this what you meant?

however, if you meant taking two ecl +1 templates and mixing them to make a +1 ecl template or 1.5 ecl template... the only thing close to that is the variant half-fiend template rules. otherwise the answer would be no.

[Widow]

the answer might be yes. if i understand your question correctly. which i'm not sure i did.

the rules i summarized indicate that all inherited templates are converted to applied templates. they retain their special entry requirements, but can now be acquired mid-campaign. also, the templates given are broken down into levels. they do not have to all be taken at the same time, nor do you have to start off with the full LA. nor do you have to finish any given template. by inference, any template could be converted to a leveled format; however, this will require dm input and approval. is this what you meant?

however, if you meant taking two ecl +1 templates and mixing them to make a +1 ecl template or 1.5 ecl template... the only thing close to that is the variant half-fiend template rules. otherwise the answer would be no.

Yeah, my answer was in regards to his +7 template on top of a +2 LA race.  No way to buy that off even if you got level based conversion on the unholy scion, and you would still need to reduce the drow LA levels in the same fashion.  Certainly with all level broken down LA class levels you could buy off alot more than normal.

He, we need an Template Thesis feat that reduces each template by 1 LA.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

For anyone who understands the rules and has the links, I am not sure that this thread is at all useful.

That said, I have some extreme min-maxing that requires the use of savage progressions due to a strange caveat with the buyoff. I believe I explain it in my build compendium's non-epic demilich build.

If you want to link to optimal builds that require the savage progressions I have (in my build compendium on this forum) one for RAW (and variants stretching into RAI) vampire, RAW half-fiend (Garisto) centaur, lich, and transition half-fey. The later is in the optimized races niche compendium.

[nijineko]

quite so. this is pretty much cut and dried, with only a few ambiguous phrasings. i have my lazy moments, and at those times i appreciate being able to just read a summation and have the links all in one place if and when i want them.

i would be happy to have any links you care to share with me.