nWoD

[Josh]

It does not make it good, but that was not the point. the point was that by setting up all of the organizations and what-not, they provide a means for a new or lazy GM to start up a game with limited difficulty. Someone familiar with their players, the rules, and the setting could change it to fit their own needs, but that would only make it subjectively good. Just because you can change it doesn't make it good, but if it can be improved, then do so. Your arguments could be applied to most settings books, they give you people, places, organizations, and so forth, and then you play. nWoD may be a bit forceful, but compare to Orpheus, where everything is on a timeline that your players cannot change/

Then it is better not to detail the organizations. 
1) Gamers have imaginations.
2) The fun part is making that stuff up
3) It requires much less prep to make stuff up yourself
4) It is harder to make stuff up when you would have to shoehorn every aspect of the world around 

[emissary666]

Then don't use their world. What? that's it? The problem is solved! Let's go eat pie!

In all seriousness though, you are missing one vital point, YOU DON'T NEED TO USE THEIR WORLD. You are treating this like you are not allowed to use anything different than what is in the books.

[Arcane-surge]

Good idea emissary, except it does feel like you're barely dodging Oberoni, not to mention the amount of text that White Wolf devotes to their setting material because the idea is, if you're running a World of Darkness game, you're playing in the World of Darkness. Open a D&D splatbook. All those pages devoted to feats, prestige classes, spells, all the crunchy bits? In a WW splatbook they're all setting stuff.

[emissary666]

I admit that they seem a bit forceful on using their setting. But, in the core rule book, it does not detail any more than how to make a game. Same with all the other books. A lot of that setting text is how to run the game. remember, they label it a Storytelling game. They almost literally mean story telling. The World of Darkness is (supposed to be) more of a role playing game than a roll playing game.
The entire reason i am defending this is because I am comparing nWoD to Orpheus. In comparison, nWoD is really open to change.

[Josh]

Then don't use their world. What? that's it? The problem is solved! Let's go eat pie!

In all seriousness though, you are missing one vital point, YOU DON'T NEED TO USE THEIR WORLD. You are treating this like you are not allowed to use anything different than what is in the books.

But then what?  The system sucks more than the setting.

Next, storytelling game is the big lie.  The game is storytelling as much as GURPS or d20.

Besides, that's not the point.  Even if you can change it, the original still blows.

[EntropicShadow]

I can't believe that I am letting myself get sucked into this thread after not posting here for so long.

Ok Josh, you hate the setting.  Thats your opinion, and I have not problem with it.  What bugs me is this

The system sucks more than the setting.

What exactly about the nWoD mechanics sucks?  I mean, it uses the basic "Gain X number of successes" that I have seen other systems use, including Burning Wheel (if my reading but not playing has given me a proper understanding).  Hell, what makes game mechanics good or bad?  You have clearly put more thought into than I have and I am eager to hear your answer to this.

[Josh]

nWoD fails to be the game it wishes it was is the primary problem.  The game is essentially d20 with will and humanity. 

It is not a story telling game.  It is inferior to games that have similarly aligned goals, burning wheel for example. 

The minutia is also full of issues.  Small range of stats, use of dots, unnecessary complexity.  But that is nitpicking.

Question 1: "what do the mechanics do that is interesting and reinforces the theme of personal horror?"
Question 2: "what do the mechanics do that is interesting and storytelling play style?"

Answer 1 and 2: Nothing.  You can fudge that stuff in, but it is not there.

[EntropicShadow]

If you don't mind, could you go into more detail?  Be as nitpicky as you like.

Why is the small range of stats and skills a problem?

Why is "dots" a bad thing?

What parts of the system are complex, much less unnecessarily so?

What makes Burning Wheel successful as a storytelling game that sets it apart from nWoD?

What mechanics would reinforce personal horror? (if you have examples other than Dread.  Otherwise, feel free to skip this)

I realise I am being a pain in the ass here, so feel free to tell me to go to hell and all.  But any concrete examples of mechanics both good and bad would help.

[emissary666]

nWoD fails to be the game it wishes it was is the primary problem.  The game is essentially d20 with will and humanity. 

It is not a story telling game.  It is inferior to games that have similarly aligned goals, burning wheel for example. 

The minutia is also full of issues.  Small range of stats, use of dots, unnecessary complexity.  But that is nitpicking.

Question 1: "what do the mechanics do that is interesting and reinforces the theme of personal horror?"
Question 2: "what do the mechanics do that is interesting and storytelling play style?"

Answer 1 and 2: Nothing.  You can fudge that stuff in, but it is not there.

And dungeons and dragons has mechanics that reinforce personal horror? nWoD is based on the concept of ROLE playing. The player is in chaarge of reinforcing the theme of personal horror and what-not! The mechanics have nothing to do with the role playing aspect! They NEVER do! The mechanics are for the rolling of dice, not the playing of character.

[Arcane-surge]

On D&D having rules for horror: Actually, yes it does. It has rules for madness and taint and whatnot in books like Unearthed Arcana and Heroes of Horror, as well as settings like Ravenloft. That said, D&D doesn't profess to be a horror game. It's an action/adventure game.

On mechanics and their relation to roleplaying: You're right. However, you're so right that you might as well be using Burning Wheel or Gurps or what have you. The mechanics rarely bog down roleplaying, but in WW they do tend to bog down gameplay a bit, especially in combat, once characters begin splitting their dice pools and using various firing modes and the like. Also, the social skills leave something to be desired, because it's not too clear exactly what they do and where they're required. You can handwave it and go "Roleplay it!" but in doing so you take away a player's ability to stand by their numbers. If I'm an introvert in a gimp mask who wants to play a stately, charismatic Ventrue, I don't want to put a ton of attributes into Socials and then be told to "Roleplay it!" Sure, I give it my best go because it's fun, but I'm probably gonna be unhappy when the theatre major across the table who's playing a hunchbacked Nosferatu with no Socials or social abilities to speak of is swaying Primogen and Princes alike with his honeyed words. It should be noted that I don't know enough about the changes made between oWoD and nWoD to comment on them. Maybe they've fixed things a bit.

One roleplaying vs. rollplaying: Please, for the love of Vishnu, just stop spelling. Yes, as I mentioned above, you can just roleplay it. And if you're going to do that every time, why bother using ANY system, be it WW or Burning Wheel or what have you? Just use freeform and play vampires and werewolves and wizards and the like.

[emissary666]

Taint is not reinforcing personal horror, it is a mechanic that is supposed to make the characters seem more horrifying. There are no mechanics that force roleplaying. I agree that the social skills are a bit hard to identify, but they are more clear in use than diplomacy.

[EntropicShadow]

Going to go a bit out of order here.  First off

On roleplaying vs. rollplaying: Please, for the love of Vishnu, just stop spelling.

Seconded.  It doesn't really help the argument at all.

but in WW they do tend to bog down gameplay a bit, especially in combat, once characters begin splitting their dice pools and using various firing modes and the like

I would call bullshit on this, except you admitted you don't know what changes have been made to the new system.  This isn't in it anymore.  No splitting dice pools.

On the topic of roleplaying versus social stats, thats comes down to your group.  As a DM I always wanted to the gist of what a person was saying, but they still rolled their dice.  If the game was supposed to be you talking and leaving the dice in a bag, then the rules wouldn't exist.

After sleeping, I feel I should probably be more upfront with my intent on the questions I asked Josh.  I am interested in the nature of mechanics, exactly what makes them good and bad and so on.  I am also interested in exactly why Josh is so intent on crusading against a game he has looked over and never played. 

I know from this thread that others here like the world/system, but I don't feel like I can really talk about it on these boards now.

[Shadowhowler]

Interesting stuff.
 
I've played as much (if not more) oWoD as I have D&D. However, these comparasions are between oWoD 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edditions... and D&D 2e and 2.5e. I have only been playing 3.5 for 2 years now (I skiped 3.0 completely) and though I have bought some of the nWoD books and read some of them, I have not played them yet.
 
I begain playing RPG's some 18 years ago... and I started with Rift's and CoC belive it or not. Then Elfquest, D&D 1st Eddition, Cyberpunk... then on the D&D 2e and the 1st eddition WoD stuff.
 
After all the years and experimenting with differnet games... my group boiled it down to 3 games that we played... WoD, Cyberpunk, and D&D. Basicly, with these three systems (all of which are quite differant from one another) we were able to play any kind of game we wanted.
I also played and ran MANY WoD LARP games... one of which had over 100 players at one time, an orginzational nightmare. 
 
I'm not really a fan of the nWoD system changes... however from what I have read so far, I may actualy like the setting and 'fluff' of the new stuff better then the oWoD. I'm not sure yet, I have not finshed reading... but I WAS disapointed by the new mechanics. It looked to me like it tried to get as close to a D20 system as it could without truly becoming a d20 system. Weird.
 
ALL of the games I have played... from D&D to Gurps and WoD to Paladium games... all of them have had their issues. I have never seen 'the perfect system'... and I doubt I ever will. All I'm looking for in a game is a setting that is interesting and enjoyable, a theme that is fun and what I am interested in playing within at that moment, and a system that allows me to play without sucking so bad as to detract from the game. All three of the games my group settled on fit that bill for me just fine.
 
One poster mentioned that WoD was good for a modern supernatural game... and I agree. There are not many, if any, games with that theme with much thought put into them. I also like and prefer games without a level system... as the character creation and advancement feels a lot more natural to me in those cases.
 
At the end of the day tho... to each their own. 

[Josh]

If you don't mind, could you go into more detail?  Be as nitpicky as you like.

Largely unnecessary, if a car does not run, who cares what color it is?  So the game is fundamentally flawed and:

Q:Why is the small range of stats and skills a problem?
A:you have a range of 5 to represent everything.  Mathematically that is very limiting. 

Q:Why is "dots" a bad thing?
A:Never use something else when a number is better.  Every time you use an ability you have to count dots, or you have to memorize the number anyway.  That wasted time slows gameplay for no reason.

Q:What parts of the system are complex, much less unnecessarily so?
A:Why is a rules lite system in as big a book as DnD?  Everything is said in much more space than it should be.  Games that do more, and are more complex, take less space(burning wheel).  And games that come closer to accomplishing the goals of nWoD and vastly more, take a fraction of the space(dread). 

Q:What makes Burning Wheel successful as a storytelling game that sets it apart from nWoD?
A:(For the record I do not consider BW to be a story game, but I get the point the questioner is making.)  It has more than skill checks and combat.  The players interact with the drama in a number of ways.  Circles, steel, artha, resources and Duel of Wits all bring drama to the game.  Example, you get hurt and you fail a steel check.  Now you choose: Die like a man, or run like a coward. 

Q:What mechanics would reinforce personal horror?
A:There was a game that was a personal horror game (incidentally WoD flatly ripped this game off) that had a very interesting take on humanity.  To less human you were the more physical goals you could accomplish, however the more human you were the more social goals you could accomplish.  In order to win you had to be the beast, in order to get on in the world you needed to be human.

[EntropicShadow]

Well, that pretty much answered all the questions I had.  I still think you aren't giving nWoD a fair chance, based on some of your answers, but at this point I am done with this thread.

[Shadowhowler]

There was a game that was a personal horror game (incidentally WoD flatly ripped this game off) that had a very interesting take on humanity.  To less human you were the more physical goals you could accomplish, however the more human you were the more social goals you could accomplish.  In order to win you had to be the beast, in order to get on in the world you needed to be human.

 
 
 
What is/was this game? It's not ringing a bell for me...
 

[Josh]

There was a game that was a personal horror game (incidentally WoD flatly ripped this game off) that had a very interesting take on humanity.  To less human you were the more physical goals you could accomplish, however the more human you were the more social goals you could accomplish.  In order to win you had to be the beast, in order to get on in the world you needed to be human.

 
 
What is/was this game? It's not ringing a bell for me...
 

I have not seen it in years and I was actually trying to remember its name with Zeke the other day.

The game had lots of rules regarding music and being in a band.  The races were demon, werewolf, vampire... 

So if anyone knows its name, let me know. 


As for not giving nWoD a chance, that may be valid.  Maybe the game needs more than the 10 times as much chance as I would give another game. 

[emissary666]

Your answers seem somewhat contradictory.

First you say that a limit of five dots is mathematically limiting, then you say that dots make it hard to memorize? you have a limited amount of skills, I think memorizing the placed dots is not that hard. also, the game is not mathematically limiting as EVERYONE has can only have 1-5 dots. It is easier than D&D, where you can range from three to infinity in abilities, and one to infinity in skills. it makes it easier for both the players and the GM. It would be tedious to use a system with numbers limited to 5. It would give the players a feeling that they are weak. Using dots makes the players feel comparatively stronger. Also, I think we covered the fact that the books are primarily roleplaying materials instead of rules, or extremely specialized rules that probable will not come up except in certain situations. I took me three hours to memorize the D&D rules. It took me a half-hour to memorize nWoD rules.

[Josh]

Your answers seem somewhat contradictory.

First you say that a limit of five dots is mathematically limiting, then you say that dots make it hard to memorize? you have a limited amount of skills, I think memorizing the placed dots is not that hard. also, the game is not mathematically limiting as EVERYONE has can only have 1-5 dots. It is easier than D&D, where you can range from three to infinity in abilities, and one to infinity in skills. it makes it easier for both the players and the GM. It would be tedious to use a system with numbers limited to 5. It would give the players a feeling that they are weak. Using dots makes the players feel comparatively stronger. Also, I think we covered the fact that the books are primarily roleplaying materials instead of rules, or extremely specialized rules that probable will not come up except in certain situations. I took me three hours to memorize the D&D rules. It took me a half-hour to memorize nWoD rules.

Well given that you are focusing on the least important aspects, you are grasping at straws.

If there are 3 dots every time you use that ability you have to count, one, two, three.  If the stat was 3 you would just read it.

Anecdotal Relative time learning is not a good metric.  DnD took me 5 minutes to get the basics down.  WoD took me a day of reading to slog through the childishly written rules section.  DnD took me a few hours to master. WoD is such a pile of garbage I stopped after getting the basics down. 

[Shadowhowler]

First you say that a limit of five dots is mathematically limiting, then you say that dots make it hard to memorize? you have a limited amount of skills, I think memorizing the placed dots is not that hard. also, the game is not mathematically limiting as EVERYONE has can only have 1-5 dots. It is easier than D&D, where you can range from three to infinity in abilities, and one to infinity in skills. it makes it easier for both the players and the GM. It would be tedious to use a system with numbers limited to 5. It would give the players a feeling that they are weak. Using dots makes the players feel comparatively stronger.

 
 
I think what he means by 'limiting' is that, with a score range of 1-5, the RANGE of attributes/skills and whatnot is very limiting.
 
Basicly the strongest guy in the world only has 4 dots more strength then the weakest guy in the world... and that does not represent the true difference in strength between these two people very well.
 
While I disagree with Josh a lot on his opinion of the WoD and I have played and ran many games for many years using the system and enjoy the game quite a bit... i *DO* agree with him on this point.
 
In WoD your scores are between 1-5, in Cyberpunk, between 1-10, in D&D between 1-18. The comparative range in WoD vs other games to represent ones statistics is VERY limited.