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Author Topic: nWoD  (Read 10658 times)
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Talen Lee
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« Reply #160 on: January 02, 2009, 07:30:29 AM »

I can't be alone in appreciating the irony.
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tsuyoshikentsu
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« Reply #161 on: January 02, 2009, 03:26:38 PM »

Remember, I LIKE the game.
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emissary666
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« Reply #162 on: January 02, 2009, 03:34:54 PM »

Not to restart the arguement about this, but, Have you ever played WoD Josh? If so, what were your experiences with it? I want to try to understand why you hate it so.

I actually don't particularly hate it.  The system that is. 

The issue is with how it is presented and the cult that surrounds it.   

that did not answer my question. have you played it?
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« Reply #163 on: January 02, 2009, 04:03:42 PM »

Not to restart the arguement about this, but, Have you ever played WoD Josh? If so, what were your experiences with it? I want to try to understand why you hate it so.

I actually don't particularly hate it.  The system that is. 

The issue is with how it is presented and the cult that surrounds it.   

that did not answer my question. have you played it?

Many times.  Vampire, Werewolf and Mage.

And I approached this from the other side, I tried to figure out what we were doing wrong for years before I realized the game was broken.  It is as bad as, lets say, runequest.  But no one is fanatically convinced that RQ is the second coming. 

It is like cheesy crappy tv shows or movies.  I like that show Cleopatra 2525.  It is a junky little crappy show that I find amusing.   

The same applies to WoD it is a junky little crappy system attached to a junky little crappy world.  If you like it, more power to you.  Is it a quality game, no.  Is the world particularly notable, no.   
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emissary666
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« Reply #164 on: January 02, 2009, 04:45:42 PM »

Can you give examples of problems you had while playing?
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« Reply #165 on: January 10, 2009, 01:14:51 PM »

Can you give examples of problems you had while playing?

Why? 

Seriously, what do you hope to accomplish? 

We had problems, the system was suspected to be the issue, we change systems and nothing else, problem goes away.  QED.

We spent years figuring all this stuff out, then I hear about people like Vincent Baker and Ron Edwards saying exactly the same things. 

So, what is your goal here?

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Talen Lee
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« Reply #166 on: January 10, 2009, 03:28:12 PM »

Quote
Seriously, what do you hope to accomplish? 
Nailing you down about specificity. Surely with your massive space brain that shouldn't be hard.
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emissary666
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« Reply #167 on: January 10, 2009, 03:30:35 PM »

Can you give examples of problems you had while playing?

Why? 

Seriously, what do you hope to accomplish? 

We had problems, the system was suspected to be the issue, we change systems and nothing else, problem goes away.  QED.

We spent years figuring all this stuff out, then I hear about people like Vincent Baker and Ron Edwards saying exactly the same things. 

So, what is your goal here?



My goal is understand what specific problems you had. By giving examples you help your statement by giving us a better view of where the game went wrong for you.
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« Reply #168 on: January 10, 2009, 10:37:53 PM »

Can you give examples of problems you had while playing?

Why? 

Seriously, what do you hope to accomplish? 

We had problems, the system was suspected to be the issue, we change systems and nothing else, problem goes away.  QED.

We spent years figuring all this stuff out, then I hear about people like Vincent Baker and Ron Edwards saying exactly the same things. 

So, what is your goal here?



My goal is understand what specific problems you had. By giving examples you help your statement by giving us a better view of where the game went wrong for you.

OK:
When I look for a system that is storytelling based, I didn't find one.
The game claims to be simple and is unnecessarily complex.
The game claims to want you to tell your story, but then tells you to do it the way they tell you to.
The book is supposed to be about telling a story and it is childishly written.
The game has no social mechanic (ie no mechanic forces a player to do some action they don't want to do).

And I haven't even started to play yet.
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veekie
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« Reply #169 on: January 11, 2009, 05:44:06 AM »

A question here, whats the general opinion on the health system used by nWoD? Thought of ripping (part of) it off for something I'm fiddling with, so the ways in which it is good or bad might be helpful.
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emissary666
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« Reply #170 on: January 11, 2009, 12:11:37 PM »

Can you give examples of problems you had while playing?

Why? 

Seriously, what do you hope to accomplish? 

We had problems, the system was suspected to be the issue, we change systems and nothing else, problem goes away.  QED.

We spent years figuring all this stuff out, then I hear about people like Vincent Baker and Ron Edwards saying exactly the same things. 

So, what is your goal here?



My goal is understand what specific problems you had. By giving examples you help your statement by giving us a better view of where the game went wrong for you.

OK:
When I look for a system that is storytelling based, I didn't find one.
The game claims to be simple and is unnecessarily complex.
The game claims to want you to tell your story, but then tells you to do it the way they tell you to.
The book is supposed to be about telling a story and it is childishly written.
The game has no social mechanic (ie no mechanic forces a player to do some action they don't want to do).

And I haven't even started to play yet.


This is the kind of input I have been asking for.
Now for me to try to counter:
A game cannot really be storytelling based, as that would mean the GM just reads a story to the players. What storytelling in a gameplay aspect means is writing your own stories, which can be done with any system
The game is actually amazingly simple in my experience. I taught it to my 8 year old cousins in under an hour, took me 2 hours to teach them D&D
Your going to have to give an example on how it tells you to run your story, because I have a hard time seeing those things.
If you are looking for a story, read a book by a professional author. The middle sections are quite childish, but that doesn't effect gameplay
The social mechanic piece is just bad. Forcing your players to do something detracts from their fun, the social mechanics are easily usable and the characters can be convinced or threatened to do something

Can you also give me examples your gameplay experiences? Knowing your experience with the actual playing of the game helps me understand where it went wrong for you and makes it easier for me to see how the things you already mentioned detracted from the fun
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emissary666
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« Reply #171 on: January 11, 2009, 12:12:45 PM »

A question here, whats the general opinion on the health system used by nWoD? Thought of ripping (part of) it off for something I'm fiddling with, so the ways in which it is good or bad might be helpful.

It gets a bit confusing at times, but once you understand the basic progression of the damage system it is easy to use.
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« Reply #172 on: January 11, 2009, 05:25:57 PM »

The damage system is simple, but is a death spiral (the more damage you take the more difficult it is to avoid further damage). This is a very gritty mechanic, and one that promotes cautious play.

The coarseness of the scale (only seven health levels), means that the difference between hardly damaged and nearly dead are very close together. This can make the process of taking damage or receiving healing very jarring and sudden. Vampires and other creatures with rapid healing can jump up and down the health scale extremely rapidly, leading to some truly bizarre behaviour.

In general, while the health system supports the "simulation" that the world of darkness attempts to provide, it is not very good from a mechanic perspective when taking balance or ease of play into account.

Josh is more then capable of fighting his own battles. Even so:

Quote
This is the kind of input I have been asking for.

Now for me to try to counter:

A game cannot really be storytelling based, as that would mean the GM just reads a story to the players. What storytelling in a gameplay aspect means is writing your own stories, which can be done with any system

Unfortunately, your definition here is incorrect according to the terminology of generally accepted roleplaying theory.

A "Story Game" is a game wherein the mechanics of the system support and enforce the creation of a particular kind of story through play.

The relative "story-ness" of a specific game operates on a wide spectrum. Games such as "The Mountain Witch", "Houses of the Blooded" and "Dogs in the Vineyard" cluster around the "more story" end, while other games like "Spirit of the Century" and "Burning Wheel" are closer to the middle.

The world of darkness games cluster at the far end of the spectrum in the "less or no story-based mechanics" area. They are specifically designed NOT to have any mechanics that enforce a particular brand of story, as that would take away from the simulated world that they are trying to create.

Quote
The game is actually amazingly simple in my experience. I taught it to my 8 year old cousins in under an hour, took me 2 hours to teach them D&D

Your relative skill in explaining mechanics to eight-year-olds is irrelevant to this discussion.

If you generalized too "the storyteller system is less complex then D&D" I might agree with you. I might not. They both have very simple basic mechanics that are obfuscated by vast lists of exceptions.



Your going to have to give an example on how it tells you to run your story, because I have a hard time seeing those things.

Quote
If you are looking for a story, read a book by a professional author.

Or play a Story Game.

Judging by your dismissive comments I would hazard a guess that you have never -played-, nor read, a story game.

If this is the case, you might want to check one of them out. They are very good.

Quote
The middle sections are quite childish, but that doesn't effect gameplay

... but that doesn't excuse their childish nature.

Quote
The social mechanic piece is just bad. Forcing your players to do something detracts from their fun, the social mechanics are easily usable and the characters can be convinced or threatened to do something

This entire section is patently untrue.

I believe you are speaking from an uninformed position. The systems that contain social mechanics that define character action by their outcome are often cited as being -more- fun then those which do not, especially for players of characters with social abilities.

Do try one out if you get the chance. "Burning Wheel" has gotten a lot of play from the Gameologists, but "Houses of the Blooded" has a similarly excellent social system.

You are also incorrect in saying that characters can be convinced or threatened in the World of Darkness games. Dice can be rolled, yes, but the outcome is entirely at the discretion of the Storyteller, and even in those rare circumstances where there are mechanics (I believe werewolf has stare-down rules) they are limited to binary success/fail results. There are no mechanics for compromise and no systems to enforce player action based on the success or failure of social rolls.

The only way to mechanically convince another character of something is to use some kind of magic.
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emissary666
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« Reply #173 on: January 11, 2009, 06:23:55 PM »

No, I have never played a story game, never found a group. However my comment on teaching my cousin was to cite an example of how simple the system is in my experience. I'm not going to say that it is easy for everyone. I'm not up to date on roleplaying theory, so thank you for giving me the definition. About the childish nature, I don't get why it matters. I just skip over them now, but do they effect your fun? If so, how? You are clearly more informed on the social mechanics part, but can you explain it to me? I'm kinda slow with that kind of thing.
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Josh
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« Reply #174 on: January 12, 2009, 02:17:30 AM »

Quote
This is the kind of input I have been asking for.
Now for me to try to counter:
A game cannot really be storytelling based, as that would mean the GM just reads a story to the players. What storytelling in a gameplay aspect means is writing your own stories, which can be done with any system
The game is actually amazingly simple in my experience. I taught it to my 8 year old cousins in under an hour, took me 2 hours to teach them D&D
Your going to have to give an example on how it tells you to run your story, because I have a hard time seeing those things.
If you are looking for a story, read a book by a professional author. The middle sections are quite childish, but that doesn't effect gameplay
The social mechanic piece is just bad. Forcing your players to do something detracts from their fun, the social mechanics are easily usable and the characters can be convinced or threatened to do something

Can you also give me examples your gameplay experiences? Knowing your experience with the actual playing of the game helps me understand where it went wrong for you and makes it easier for me to see how the things you already mentioned detracted from the fun
Go play a game called "Prime Time Adventures."  It will clear things up.  It is simple, a story game it has social mechanics.

As for skipping the "childishness" I thought the book was supposed to have good world and color info?  If you are not reading the childish parts, what are you reading? 
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emissary666
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« Reply #175 on: January 12, 2009, 12:55:31 PM »

The rules and advice on running the game!
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« Reply #176 on: January 15, 2009, 07:47:02 AM »

My biggest problem with the game (and any of the similar dot based d6 games for that matter) is scalability. The range is too narrow. Tasks end up being (and this is through experience of actual play) too easy or too hard. I disagree with Josh on some points about the world. There are some parts of the world that are interesting. However, I think the game would benefit from a switch to conflict resolution rather than task resolution. That is to say because the game makes you do things one little thing at a time, it makes it difficult to explore your character and generate story.
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« Reply #177 on: January 15, 2009, 06:33:53 PM »

Obsessive Compulsive Note of Accuracy: The World of Darkness games have always been played with D10's, not D6's.
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Josh
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« Reply #178 on: January 15, 2009, 11:04:08 PM »

Obsessive Compulsive Note of Accuracy: The World of Darkness games have always been played with D10's, not D6's.
Obsessive Compulsive Note of Accuracy: The Wod Ripped the system off of Shadowrun and Ghostbusters, d6 based games.  That is what zeke is referring to.
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« Reply #179 on: January 16, 2009, 09:04:10 AM »

Ah the squirrelly nature of the word "similar".

Zeke is correct. The task-resolution system does not mesh well with the... uhh.. (english fails me again!) the resolution(as in the grain) of the traits.
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