nWoD

[Shadowhowler]

Josh, thanks for the added info. I gotta say, I dissagree with most of what you have said regarding OWoD and it's impact on the RPG hobby.

I was playing RPG's before WW, and have contenued to play other games after WW... but I'd be willing to bet decent money that I have a LOT more direct experince with WW games and WW players... both tabletop and LARP... then you have. In my area WW was directly responsible for bringing a LOT of new players to the hobby, mostly threw LARP games. A LOT of those players moved on to other games... I know this becaus I played with many of them. Prior to WW, you had a better chance of finding a $10,000 dimond ring on the street then finding a woman gamer in my area. I say this because before WW I never met a single female gamer... but I *DID* find a $10,000 dimond ring.
 
At any rate... I can see that you dislike WW and it's games quite a bit... and now I have a much better of WHY that is... so it only makes sense for you to want to see the company and it's games as 'the devil' and 'almost destroyed the hobby'.
 
Hell, I dislike MMORPG's (dispite the fact that one of my best friends and ex roomates is a content writer for EQ) quite a bit... and I blame a lot of what I percive as changes in the way most people play RPG's these days on those MMO's... but I'm willing to admit that my opinion may be colored by my dislike of the MMO's.
 
At any rate... my experince with WW games has shown me the exact opposet of what you belive their effect on the RPG hobby was... so I guess I'll just write it up as differing experinces/opinions.

[Josh]

WW did bring in people, but not more than any other game.

Let me point out the things that have been said about the positive impact of WW. 

1) Overall numbers of gamers were increased by WW
2) Women became a higher percentage of gamers
3) The demographics of gamer changed from conservative history nerd to hippie drama club geeks.

The proof.  Comparisons of the numbers and demographics of gamers before and after.

First off this was a trend that started before Vampire, that vampire capitalized on.  Even at its most popular WW cannot account for the increases.  DnD still ruled the market.  It would be impossible for WW to be solely responsible for these changes.

Next, these factors account for themselves.  As people from untapped demographics enter the hobby they will bring in others.  No girls played, until girls started playing and opened the market.

Now the effect on existing gamers

1) WoD represented a new way of gaming

Again factually false.  It was more of the same, with the lie of newness tacked on.  So in addition to being the same it deluded people.  Fact.

So set my opinions aside.  There are enough facts to damn WoD to a hell of your devising.

Josh, thanks for the added info. I gotta say, I dissagree with most of what you have said regarding OWoD and it's impact on the RPG hobby.

I was playing RPG's before WW, and have contenued to play other games after WW... but I'd be willing to bet decent money that I have a LOT more direct experince with WW games and WW players... both tabletop and LARP... then you have. In my area WW was directly responsible for bringing a LOT of new players to the hobby, mostly threw LARP games. A LOT of those players moved on to other games... I know this becaus I played with many of them. Prior to WW, you had a better chance of finding a $10,000 dimond ring on the street then finding a woman gamer in my area. I say this because before WW I never met a single female gamer... but I *DID* find a $10,000 dimond ring.
 
At any rate... I can see that you dislike WW and it's games quite a bit... and now I have a much better of WHY that is... so it only makes sense for you to want to see the company and it's games as 'the devil' and 'almost destroyed the hobby'.
 
Hell, I dislike MMORPG's (dispite the fact that one of my best friends and ex roomates is a content writer for EQ) quite a bit... and I blame a lot of what I percive as changes in the way most people play RPG's these days on those MMO's... but I'm willing to admit that my opinion may be colored by my dislike of the MMO's.
 
At any rate... my experince with WW games has shown me the exact opposet of what you belive their effect on the RPG hobby was... so I guess I'll just write it up as differing experinces/opinions.

[Shadowhowler]

WW did bring in people, but not more than any other game.

Let me point out the things that have been said about the positive impact of WW. 

1) Overall numbers of gamers were increased by WW
2) Women became a higher percentage of gamers
3) The demographics of gamer changed from conservative history nerd to hippie drama club geeks.

The proof.  Comparisons of the numbers and demographics of gamers before and after.

First off this was a trend that started before Vampire, that vampire capitalized on.  Even at its most popular WW cannot account for the increases.  DnD still ruled the market.  It would be impossible for WW to be solely responsible for these changes.

Next, these factors account for themselves.  As people from untapped demographics enter the hobby they will bring in others.  No girls played, until girls started playing and opened the market.

Now the effect on existing gamers

1) WoD represented a new way of gaming

Again factually false.  It was more of the same, with the lie of newness tacked on.  So in addition to being the same it deluded people.  Fact.

So set my opinions aside.  There are enough facts to damn WoD to a hell of your devising.

 
 
Well... again, I can only speak for my area... but I can speak with a decent degree of authority about gaming in my area. I was VERY plugged in at the time.
 
In my area... WoD *DID* bring in a lot of new players to the hobby... and these players were not part of a trend that existed before WW. Over 100+ players in the Monterey Bay area alone were introduced to the hobby of RPG's threw WW Mind's Eye LARP. Those 100+ players had never played a RPG before... and the only thing they new about RPG's before playing LARP was 'Isn't that the D&D thing with the nerd dorks who can't get laid?'. A large portion of those 100+ players, over 3/4ths for sure, were Military. Monterey Bay had the DLI, (Defense Languge Institute, which brings in young enlisted people from all over the country and all 4 major branches of service) the Navy Postgraduate School, and HAD Fort Ord untill it was closed. So there was and still is a large military pressence in the area. I ran/played LARP's in the area (in addition to my regular tabletop gaming) from around 1993 to 2004. Durring that time I had WELL over 100 players join my LARP games that had never played ANY RPG before, ever.
 
Now... not all of them made the transition to tabletop... and some that did only played WW tabletop games. I personaly played with over 30+ players in tabletop games later that had never played RPG's and had experinced their first RPG in my LARP games. More then 30 of them played Cyberpunk, or D&D, or other WW tabletop gams with me and other members of my core tabletop gaming group.

Also... every single girl (Except 1 who played 3 sessions of a D&D game I was part of in 1989) I have EVER gamed with got her start with WW games... almost all of them Vampire... but a few with Changling or Warewolf. Every single one. Well over 50+ female gamers... and not a single one of them played ANYTHING before WW LARP. A lot of them stuck to LARP... less women made the transition to tabletop play from my LARP's then did men... but the ones that did were very open minded and willing to try anything. This includes my wife... who had never played a RPG until she was introduced to Vampire LARP in Seattle. (As fate would have it, the guy running the game was a player of mine from a few years before who was in the Navy. He got orders to Seattle... started his own game up there... got my wife into gaming... so that when she got to Monterey she looked for LARP's... and thus I met her. Kinda cool that a guy who had never gamd before my game, went on to run his own... so that my wife, who had never gamed before, would learn at his game, and thus end up at my game, and I would meet her.)
 
Now... the above all happend. It's a fact. I can not say with any knowledge what effect WW had on the hobby of gaming outside of a 50 mile radius of the Monterey Bay... but I can say for SURE it had a HUGE impact on gaming in that area. From talking to others in San Fransico, San Deago, Seattle, Sacramento, Fresno, and a few other laces, mostly in California, I can say I have HEARD it was similar in those other places. Bassed on that, and my own experince, I would guess WW's impact on the hobby of gaming world wide was more like I have experinced in then how you claim it was.
 
However, I only know for sure in my area. In Monterey Bay... WW had a MASSIVE impact on gaming... for the BETTER. It brought in loads of new players... players that were not brought in by some other trend, players who had never played any RPG or had any interest in playing any RPG until WW LARP. Lots of the players WW brought to the hobby went on to play other styles of game (tabletop) and other brands of game. (D&D, Gurps, Cyperpunk, Shadowrun, CoC, Amber, and others) WW for SURE in my area is directly responsible for VASTLY incressing the number of female gamers.
 
I think credit were credit is due. Whahtever you may think of the game itself... or how it was marketed... I think it deserves respect for what it DID do well... bring lots of new players to the hobby of gaming. I know 100% for certain that in my area alone, WW was directly responsible for a HUGE surge in gaming, and a MASSIVE incress in female players.
 
 
Now... as to your complaint that WW claimed to represent a 'new way of gaming' and failed to deliver, I agree for the most part. The focus on story and character development WW games claimed over and over again in all their products... my group was already playing that way. I met more then my fair share of WW players that did not care for story, drama, and character development, and were only trying to min/max their characters for combat and kick everythings butt. I don't feel there was really any higher or lower percentage of Story focused or combat focused player in WW then there was in D&D or any other game... so in that, I agree with you, WW failed.

[Josh]

Your experience is contrary to the rest of the RPG playing world. 

That is why you did not understand my position at first.

[Zeke]

[quote
A:There was a game that was a personal horror game (incidentally WoD flatly ripped this game off) that had a very interesting take on humanity.  To less human you were the more physical goals you could accomplish, however the more human you were the more social goals you could accomplish.  In order to win you had to be the beast, in order to get on in the world you needed to be human.


[/quote]


 I am pretty sure that this is the game Nightlife by Stellar Games. (big thanks to Ben Balestra for the research)

[Shadowhowler]

I am pretty sure that this is the game Nightlife by Stellar Games. (big thakns to Ben Balestra for the research)

 
 
I've never heard of it... but I'm going to look for it, because I'm interested. Thanks.

[emissary666]

Your experience is contrary to the rest of the RPG playing world. 

That is why you did not understand my position at first.

Have you traveled all around the world, running polls on the effects of WoD? If yes, then get laid, if no, then shut up.

5) Look around and you will find WW horror stories.

I agree, you will find fan fics. Lots of them. They can be considered horror in either how bad they are or how amazingly good they are. You see, the 12-year old cutters are the ones writting the fan fics, not the books. If you are talking about game play, then yes, you will find a lot of bad stories about WW, told by people who don't listen to reason and are convinced that they are completely correct in their opinion. So, we can seperate the bad experiences into two catagories:
The Joshes, who consider themselves correct no matter how much it makes them look like a douchebag or a retard
Average Intelligence, who will listen to reason and only post the bad things because they want a second opinion

DnD is DnD.  you kill monsters and take stuff, it is in fact supposed to be “like Zelda.”

I would say D&D rules sans splat are less supportive of their target genre than nWoD rules sans splat, from my brief overlook of the latter system. nWoD places a higher mechanical emphasis on social interaction and personal insight than D&D does - an essential part of that system's flavor.

Actually these systems are on par with those of 3ed.  And actually inferior to those of 4e. 

D&D was before Zelda. In Zelda you play a mute elf with no personality on a quest to save the title princess. In D&D you play as a being of freewill and personality.

Also, claiming 4e is superior to 3e proves nothing. 4e is primarily a combat simulator, 3e was relatively modular in what kind of game you wish to play. WoD cannot be compared to any system other than WoD as comparing mechanics relies to heavily on the opinions of each person, just like whether a game is good or not. In fact, why don't we lock the thread and all agree to disagree?

[Josh]

I was just going to ignore this but it is actually quite funny:

Your experience is contrary to the rest of the RPG playing world. 
That is why you did not understand my position at first.

Have you traveled all around the world, running polls on the effects of WoD? If yes, then get laid, if no, then shut up.

Yes, my position can only be backed up by running world wide polls.

5) Look around and you will find WW horror stories.

I agree, you will find fan fics. Lots of them. They can be considered horror in either how bad they are or how amazingly good they are. You see, the 12-year old cutters are the ones writting the fan fics, not the books. If you are talking about game play, then yes, you will find a lot of bad stories about WW, told by people who don't listen to reason and are convinced that they are completely correct in their opinion. So, we can seperate the bad experiences into two catagories:
The Joshes, who consider themselves correct no matter how much it makes them look like a douchebag or a retard
Average Intelligence, who will listen to reason and only post the bad things because they want a second opinion

Horror stories about how bad and screwed up their WoD experiences were.  Real life stories, not fan fics.

DnD is DnD.  you kill monsters and take stuff, it is in fact supposed to be “like Zelda.”

I would say D&D rules sans splat are less supportive of their target genre than nWoD rules sans splat, from my brief overlook of the latter system. nWoD places a higher mechanical emphasis on social interaction and personal insight than D&D does - an essential part of that system's flavor.

Actually these systems are on par with those of 3ed.  And actually inferior to those of 4e. 

D&D was before Zelda. In Zelda you play a mute elf with no personality on a quest to save the title princess. In D&D you play as a being of freewill and personality.

Also, claiming 4e is superior to 3e proves nothing. 4e is primarily a combat simulator, 3e was relatively modular in what kind of game you wish to play. WoD cannot be compared to any system other than WoD as comparing mechanics relies to heavily on the opinions of each person, just like whether a game is good or not. In fact, why don't we lock the thread and all agree to disagree?

[/quote]
I claim 4 is superior to 3.5?  That's news to me.

Also 3ed IS primarily a combat sim.

And, DnD is like Zelda.  I did not say it WAS Zelda.  I said it was LIKE Zelda.

[emissary666]

I was just going to ignore this but it is actually quite funny:

Your experience is contrary to the rest of the RPG playing world. 
That is why you did not understand my position at first.

Have you traveled all around the world, running polls on the effects of WoD? If yes, then get laid, if no, then shut up.

Yes, my position can only be backed up by running world wide polls.

5) Look around and you will find WW horror stories.

I agree, you will find fan fics. Lots of them. They can be considered horror in either how bad they are or how amazingly good they are. You see, the 12-year old cutters are the ones writting the fan fics, not the books. If you are talking about game play, then yes, you will find a lot of bad stories about WW, told by people who don't listen to reason and are convinced that they are completely correct in their opinion. So, we can seperate the bad experiences into two catagories:
The Joshes, who consider themselves correct no matter how much it makes them look like a douchebag or a retard
Average Intelligence, who will listen to reason and only post the bad things because they want a second opinion

Horror stories about how bad and screwed up their WoD experiences were.  Real life stories, not fan fics.

I'm glad you thought I was funny.

If you would look at the bolded print, you will see that I did state that you would find bad gameplay experiences, from people who hate WoD for those experiences.

[Josh]

I was just going to ignore this but it is actually quite funny:

Your experience is contrary to the rest of the RPG playing world. 
That is why you did not understand my position at first.

Have you traveled all around the world, running polls on the effects of WoD? If yes, then get laid, if no, then shut up.

Yes, my position can only be backed up by running world wide polls.

5) Look around and you will find WW horror stories.

I agree, you will find fan fics. Lots of them. They can be considered horror in either how bad they are or how amazingly good they are. You see, the 12-year old cutters are the ones writting the fan fics, not the books. If you are talking about game play, then yes, you will find a lot of bad stories about WW, told by people who don't listen to reason and are convinced that they are completely correct in their opinion. So, we can seperate the bad experiences into two catagories:
The Joshes, who consider themselves correct no matter how much it makes them look like a douchebag or a retard
Average Intelligence, who will listen to reason and only post the bad things because they want a second opinion

Horror stories about how bad and screwed up their WoD experiences were.  Real life stories, not fan fics.

I'm glad you thought I was funny.

If you would look at the bolded print, you will see that I did state that you would find bad gameplay experiences, from people who hate WoD for those experiences.

So to translate:

Oh I was such a fool on points 1-12 and 14-20, but if you look at point 13 subsection c you can see I implicitly implied that I felt differently, despite what I said elsewhere in the point.

[emissary666]

 
Did you mistake a joke for being serious? I was admitting that you can find bad gameplay experiences, but most of them are told by people who hated WoD as a whole and don't listen to reason. Some people tell bad gameplay experiences to laugh or ask advice, but a lot of people just want to convert people away from WoD

[Josh]

Did you mistake a joke for being serious? I was admitting that you can find bad gameplay experiences, but most of them are told by people who hated WoD as a whole and don't listen to reason. Some people tell bad gameplay experiences to laugh or ask advice, but a lot of people just want to convert people away from WoD

Actually people who "hate" WoD are in the right.  The problem is not that they do not listen to "reason" rather they are not cowed by nonsense.  Converting people away is the best thing they could possibly do.

As for joke vs. serious, I can't tell in this case.  Jokes and nonsense are nearly indistinguishable, unless the joke is actually funny.

[JaronK]

Interesting note:  Of the female gamers I know, about 75% started via D&D, while about 25% started via Mage.

JaronK

[Josh]

Interesting note:  Of the female gamers I know, about 75% started via D&D, while about 25% started via Mage.

JaronK

If you don't mind, what is your approximate sample size?

[JaronK]

About 11 or so, IIRC it's 8 and 3.  I could be more accurate than that though and check around.  Obviously, that's not a huge size, but it's something.

JaronK

[BowenSilverclaw]

Heh, I only know 7 or so female gamers, but all of them started with D&D

[emissary666]

Not to restart the arguement about this, but, Have you ever played WoD Josh? If so, what were your experiences with it? I want to try to understand why you hate it so.

[Talen Lee]

There is no good modern setting.

Myself, and I apologise for not reading the whole thread here, have found that the biggest problem with modern settings is the nature of modern reality. We deal with it on a daily basis, so when we see a system where a normal person gets shot, we expect them to go down. D20 modern's awkward damage threshold rules attempt to shoehorn together D&D's hp-based world with the world where you have weapons capable of crippling someone in a single hit... even then, it completely fails to accommodate modern tropes like sniper rifles and hand grenades, which are 'I-win' buttons and very, very unfair when employed in a game. You need some way to circumvent that.

Also, the Zelda comparison is completely apt. The Legend of Zelda games have all been perfect examples of the style of game D&D is designed to run, filtered through a different, but more limited, control mechanism. In all cases, they've also represented D&D - in that some approaches to solving your problems have been brutally, brutally more effective than others. In a single player game, this isn't actually a big deal.

I find myself compelled to start a thread. Be right back.

[Josh]

Not to restart the arguement about this, but, Have you ever played WoD Josh? If so, what were your experiences with it? I want to try to understand why you hate it so.

I actually don't particularly hate it.  The system that is. 

The issue is with how it is presented and the cult that surrounds it.   

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Wait, all you're saying is that White Wolf and its slavish devotees are a bunch of complete pricks?

Well, yeah.  I mean, no need to state the obvious.