The 3.5 Cleric Handbook

[AfterCrescent]

Actually, if we want to get technical, it specifically says RACE. Singular. So technically speaking,that applies to deities like Garl, but not Ehlonna. Futher, if you actually read Ehlonna's bio bit on 107 she takes human form, although it does mention her being closer to Elves, gnomes, and halflings. So yeah, I'm fairly certain she's not racist, and humans can worship her.

But more on point, what are you trying to prove? In a core only game, a human cleric archer is one of, if not the best way to go. In a core + completes that still stands. Gnome clerics and halfling clerics would be next, too. Elves come somewhere after that. Ehlonna's domain choices are not amazing for what you want. The only thing she offers is the longbow as a favored weapon.

So what have we proved? In a core only game, Human > Elf. And if you want to pick a very specific cleric archetype with all kinds of flavor limitations, you may end up with an elf? That's fine. It's not an optimal choice from a mechanical stance. This handbook does not account for flavor, since it is mutable and people can choose their own flavor. We stick to the mechanics.

[StPeteGamer]

Well I hate to break up the elf debate.  However, in my next campaign I am going to be making a dwarven cleric who is going to try to rape as much as possible out of DMM.  I understand dwarf is not the best race for this, but it is an RP thing.  The way we build characters is usually a +14 to stats (the plus being the total pluses e.g. 18 = +4) with three odds and three evens, with the odds not being able to make an 18 a 19 unless allowed by some kind of racial adjustment.  I want to make a melee with persist abuse and get my DMM on any recommendations for this would be greatly appreciated...

[stanfieldish]

Best spells to persist for melee are:
1) lesser holy transformation(spc) +2str +2con +2saves (all sacred), fly speed of 60ft, darkvision 60ft and creature type becomes good outsider.
2) divine power(phb) +6str (enhancement), +1 temp hp/caster level and bab=character level.
3) righteous might(phb) +4 str +2con (both size) +2 natural armor (enhancement), you double in size also your weapon scales to your size as well and you gain damage reduction 3/good or evil based on energy channeled also scales with caster level.
4) righteous wrath of the faithful(spc) +3 melee attack/damage rolls (morale) and everyone in radius gains one extra attack at highest modifier.

Best spells to extend for melee:
1) magic vestment(phb) +X (enhancement) for your armor or shield.
2) greater magic weapon(phb) +X (enhancement) for your weapon.

Useful spells for persisting:
1) mass lesser vigor(spc) everyone gains fast healing 1.
2) divine retaliation(phb2) every time you are struck in melee a force weapon that your diety favors strikes back for damage equal to a weapon appropriate for your current size category (to hit=caster level+str/wis and damage=weapon damage+1.5str/wis).
3) recitation(spc) +2/3(if worship same diety) attack, armor and saves (all luck).

Most ridiculous spell for persisting:
1) greater anyspell(spc):draconic polymorph(draco) become a dragon equal to you in hit dice (max 20) and also gain +8str +2con (unnamed).

Also don't forget that you can extend the spells you persist so ideally you will have a rotation of certain buff spells to maximize your turn attempts each day.
Other helpful hints are to pick up rods of metamagic:extend so you can extend your highest level castable spells. Also make sure to grab a bead of karma for daily buffing use so you can get the most bang for your buck on your persisted spells and long lasting spells.

Anywho there are a lot of great spells for melee clerics hope these suggestions help 

[BowenSilverclaw]

If you go dwarf pick a gold dwarf to avoid the hit to charisma

[Tshern]

Most ridiculous spell for persisting:
1) greater anyspell(spc):draconic polymorph(draco) become a dragon equal to you in hit dice (max 20) and also gain +8str +2con (unnamed).

SHAPECHANGE!

[woodenbandman]

Shapechange is the only spell for melee. All others are just imitators.

[Tshern]

Anyspell to Wraithstrike is decent as well.

[AfterCrescent]

Well SPG, it seems stan gave you a good list of spells. DMM Persist is arguably the strongest use of DMM, with or without Cha penalty dwarves. Dwarves are great for melee. Also, one persist I enjoy for melee at high levels is Miracle: Giant Size for colossal doom.

In addition to Bowen's suggestion: "Desert, Dream, Gold, Korobokuru" are the dwarves without Cha penalties.

But yeah, wraithstrike & shapechange are really good.

[StPeteGamer]

Best spells to persist for melee are:
1) lesser holy transformation(spc) +2str +2con +2saves (all sacred), fly speed of 60ft, darkvision 60ft and creature type becomes good outsider.
2) divine power(phb) +6str (enhancement), +1 temp hp/caster level and bab=character level.
3) righteous might(phb) +4 str +2con (both size) +2 natural armor (enhancement), you double in size also your weapon scales to your size as well and you gain damage reduction 3/good or evil based on energy channeled also scales with caster level.
4) righteous wrath of the faithful(spc) +3 melee attack/damage rolls (morale) and everyone in radius gains one extra attack at highest modifier.

Best spells to extend for melee:
1) magic vestment(phb) +X (enhancement) for your armor or shield.
2) greater magic weapon(phb) +X (enhancement) for your weapon.

Useful spells for persisting:
1) mass lesser vigor(spc) everyone gains fast healing 1.
2) divine retaliation(phb2) every time you are struck in melee a force weapon that your diety favors strikes back for damage equal to a weapon appropriate for your current size category (to hit=caster level+str/wis and damage=weapon damage+1.5str/wis).
3) recitation(spc) +2/3(if worship same diety) attack, armor and saves (all luck).

Most ridiculous spell for persisting:
1) greater anyspell(spc):draconic polymorph(draco) become a dragon equal to you in hit dice (max 20) and also gain +8str +2con (unnamed).

Also don't forget that you can extend the spells you persist so ideally you will have a rotation of certain buff spells to maximize your turn attempts each day.
Other helpful hints are to pick up rods of metamagic:extend so you can extend your highest level castable spells. Also make sure to grab a bead of karma for daily buffing use so you can get the most bang for your buck on your persisted spells and long lasting spells.

Anywho there are a lot of great spells for melee clerics hope these suggestions help 

Very useful list copy and pasted to my HD thanks for the advice...

If you go dwarf pick a gold dwarf to avoid the hit to charisma

We don't usually use them but it may be worth a try what book are they out of?

Most ridiculous spell for persisting:
1) greater anyspell(spc):draconic polymorph(draco) become a dragon equal to you in hit dice (max 20) and also gain +8str +2con (unnamed).

SHAPECHANGE!

Ummm if I wanted to play a shapechanger wouldn't I play a druid or the wild shape ranger variant?  SO i could get into all those disgusting PrCs?

Shapechange is the only spell for melee. All others are just imitators.

Your opinion helped so much thank you....

Anyspell to Wraithstrike is decent as well.

What book is that out of I have heard it entioned a lot but do not know where to find it?

Well SPG, it seems stan gave you a good list of spells. DMM Persist is arguably the strongest use of DMM, with or without Cha penalty dwarves. Dwarves are great for melee. Also, one persist I enjoy for melee at high levels is Miracle: Giant Size for colossal doom.

In addition to Bowen's suggestion: "Desert, Dream, Gold, Korobokuru" are the dwarves without Cha penalties.

But yeah, wraithstrike & shapechange are really good.

What books are these out of, dwarf races, Yes I have read that trick in this forum already and if the campaign goe long enough you better believe I will be the first Giant dwarf in our homebrew world   

Thanks for the help guys anyother suggestions/tips are appreciated...
Also are there any worth while PrCs for a good cleric specializing in melee?

[AfterCrescent]

Gold Dwarf is in the FR campaign setting, iirc.
Desert is either UA or Sandstorm, I think UA, though.
Dream is Races of Stone
Koro is from Oriental Adventures.

As for PrCs, you can go Ordained Champion (CC), Knight of the Raven (Exp to Ravenloft), or Bone Knight (5N). Those would be my vote.

[StPeteGamer]

Gold Dwarf is in the FR campaign setting, iirc.
Desert is either UA or Sandstorm, I think UA, though.
Dream is Races of Stone
Koro is from Oriental Adventures.

As for PrCs, you can go Ordained Champion (CC), Knight of the Raven (Exp to Ravenloft), or Bone Knight (5N). Those would be my vote.

Sorry forgot to mention that we do not use FR or Eberron material however RoS and SaS are both options I could probably even slide in the oriental adv. but would rather not thanks for the help

[carnivore]

heres an even better dwarf:

Aleithian Dwarves

+2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.

Medium size.

A dwarf's base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

Darkvision out to 90 feet.

Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn't stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. An aleithian dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as though actively searching and can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. An aleithian dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.

+2 racial bonus on Will saves against psionics, including psionic combat. *Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here.

+2 racial bonus on Fortitude saving throws against poison.

Aleithian dwarves receive a +2 racial bonus on Craft skills related to crystal, metal, or stone. (These bonuses are included in the stat block.)

Light Sensitivity: Aleithians are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.

Psionics (Sp): 3/day -- ectoplasmic repair, finger of fire, ego whip, empty mind.

 
Automatic Languages: Dwarven and Common. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Terran, and Undercommon.

Favored Class: Psion or Psychic Warrior; determined at character creation.





the only drawback.... they are 3.0
 

[Sinfire Titan]

And that -4 Cha hurts Persist a bit.

[StPeteGamer]

And that -4 Cha hurts Persist a bit.

yes i was about to ask how taking another -2 to my char off the base dwarf would make me a better melee persist cleric?

[Tshern]

StPeteGamer: Wraithstrike is originally from Complete Adventurer, but was republished in Spell Compendium.

[StPeteGamer]

StPeteGamer: Wraithstrike is originally from Complete Adventurer, but was republished in Spell Compendium.

roger that thanks...

I don't want to hijack this thread any more though so I am going to repost this topic in the main forum will repost the build here once it is done...

Thanks for all the response hope you will help in the other forum also guys...

Also I would suggest adding the list of good persistable spell to the handbook itself

[carnivore]

here are Some that are Persistable..... i would use the Highlighted ones

Level 0
Detect Magic - PHB
Detect Poison - PHB
Read Magic - PHB

Level 1
Bless - PHB
Bane - PHB
Comprehend Languages - PHB
Deathwatch - PHB
Detect Secret Doors (Knowledge) - PHB
Disguise Self (Trickery) - PHB
Divine Favor - PHB
Entropic Shield - PHB
Expeditous Retreat (Celerity from CD) - PHB
Grave Strike - CV
Longstrider (Travel) - PHB
Obscuring Mist - PHB
Raptor's Sight (Sky) - RotW
Rooftop Strider (City) - RoD
Scholar's Touch - RoD

Level 2
Detect Thoughts (Knowledge) - PHB
Divine Insight - CV
Find Traps - PHB
Healing Lorecall - CV
Produce Flame (Fire) - PHB
Stone Fist - RoS
Zeal (Competition) - CD

Level 3
Blessed Aim - CD
Briar Web - CD
Cloak of Bravery (Cleric, Courage) - CW
Detect Thoughts (Inquisition) - PHB
Helping Hand - PHB
Locate Object - PHB
Meld into Stone - PHB
Prayer - PHB
Recitation (Purification) - CD
Ring of Blades - CA
Visage of the Deity, Lesser - CD
Wind Wall - PHB

Level 4
Aerial Alacrity (Sky) - RotW
Assay Resistance - CA
Beast Claws - CD
Consumptive Field - LM
Dimensional Anchor - PHB
Divine Power - PHB
Doomtide - CD
Fear (Tyranny) - PHB
Fire Shield (Sun) - PHB
Minor Creation (Creation) - PHB
Recitation - CD
Weapon of the Deity - CD

Level 5
Dance of the Unicorn (Purification) - CD
Dragon Breath - CD
Righteous Might - PHB
Subvert Planar Essence - CD
Tree Stride (Celerity from CD) - PHB

 

[StPeteGamer]

none worth mentioning at 6th 7th 8th or 9th levels

[AndyJames]

Greater Visage of the Deity basically gives you the Half-Celestial (or Half-Fiend) template at 9th level, and it is persistable, IIRC.

[carnivore]

here are the rest:

Level 6
Anti-life Shell - PHB
Antimagic Field (Magic, Protection) - PHB
Blade Barrier - PHB
Repel Wood (Plant) - PHB
Visage of the Deity - CD

Level 7
Control Weather - PHB
Earthquake (Earth) - PHB
Ethereal Jaunt - PHB
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful - CD
Spell Turning (Luck, Magic) - PHB
Urban Shield (City) - RoD

Level 8
Antimagic Field - PHB
City's Might (City) - RoD
Crown of Glory (Glory) - CD
Earthquake - PHB
Holy Aura - PHB
Iron Body (Earth) - PHB
Lion's Roar (Courage) - CW
Mastery of the Sky (Sky) - RotW
Shield of Law - PHB
Stormrage - CD
Unholy Aura - PHB

Level 9
Animate City (City) - RoD
Choose Destiny (Destiny) - RoD
Foresight (Knowledge, Oracle, Fate) - PHB
Greater Cloak of Bravery (Courage) - CW
Prismatic Sphere (Protection, Sun) - PHB
Shapechange (Animal) - PHB
Visage of the Deity, Greater - CD