The 3.5 Cleric Handbook

[cvbnmme4th]

May I suggest Moonspeaker for PrCs? It requires shifter but, as you said Dreamsight Shifter is hardly a sub-optimal choice. Moonspeaker gives great bonuses across the board, most notably Wilshape but also free augment summoning, free extended summoning, extra spells, energy resistance to two different energy types (hello cold and fire), bonus feats, shifter bonuses all the time and full spell casting. The only part that you cant qualify for with standard cleric is knowledge nature but you can get that from knowledge domain or (even better) cloistered cleric.

[Velkro]

Playing 3.5 FR and just rolled me scores for a Lvl 3 human cleric. The scores are fixed but I can assign them to any ability. I rolled 18, 17, 15, 10, 10, 9.

I want to go the melee route since rolling dice in close combat is way more funnerer than sitting in the back healing rogues and wizzies. We only play twice a month so I want to maximize fun. I'm thinking about going either Red Knight or Tyr and leaving open possibility of progressing to CI and OD but my scores are giving me a headache. Also may go the Torm route with a dip into Ftr for the greatsword. I plan on using max turn attempts to fuel Law Devotion and MD feats eventually. MD Persist is probably out so I'm leaning toward MD Extend.
My initial take is: STR 18, DEX 10, CON 15, INT 10, WIS 17, CHA 9
Should I skimp on CON or STR to fuel CHA? Any other suggestions? Thanks!

[carnivore]

with those rolls .... try this:

Human
Cloistered Cleric 3

Attributes: (using your rolls:18, 17, 15, 10, 10, 9)

10 Str
9 Dex
17 Con
10 Int
15 Wis
18 Cha

since you will use Divine Metamagic(Persistant) physical abilities are not as important(Except Con for Melee) ....

Patron: Red Knight
Domains:
Knowledge ....... Exchange for Knowledge Devotion
War ................ gain Martial Weapon(Longsword), Weapon Focus(Longsword)
Planning .......... gain Extend Spell

Feats:
Education(Human bonus)
1st lvl: Persistent Spell
3rd lvl: Divine Metamagic(Persistant Spell)


 

[Velkro]

Thanks for the prompt reply, Carnivore. A couple more questions...
-If the DM disallows persistent, would you change your recommendation?
-Will I be able to hit and damage anything in combat with a +0/+0?

[Havok4]

You just need to persist a good buff spell on yourself to get your attack bonus higher, like divine favor. And you get attack and damage bonuses due to knowledge devotion. Also persist lesser vigor (if touch is considered a fixed range) to give yourself lots of endurance.
If persist is disallowed swap wis and cha and pick up law devotion via a domain instead of planning,

[carnivore]

Thanks for the prompt reply, Carnivore. A couple more questions...
-If the DM disallows persistent, would you change your recommendation?
-Will I be able to hit and damage anything in combat with a +0/+0?

1)yes i would change it ... as it would be different on most all levels

2)a Cloistered Cleric 3, has a BAB = +1 .... you can also use Alchemical Splash Weapons(Alchemist Fire, Acid, Holy Water, Tanglefoot Bags, etc...) they are Ranged Touch Attacks that you should be able to make use of very effectively, in addition you will have Weapon Focus(Longsword) so that is an additional +1 Attack with that weapon, if it is a Masterwork longsword it will have another bonus: +1 Enhancement to Attack so you will be +3 to hit without any buffs with the Longsword

this is what i would do without DMM(Persistent) :

Human
Cloistered Cleric 3

Attributes: (using your rolls:18, 17, 15, 10, 10, 9)

17 Str
9 Dex
18 Con
10 Int
15 Wis
10 Cha

Str is important for Attack and Damage, Con is vital for HP if you want to melee a lot ...... Wisdom will be more useful later ... the next Attribute Boost you gain at 4th lvl should go to Wis, at 8th lvl Str, the rest to Wis

Patron: Red Knight
Domains:
Knowledge ....... Exchange for Knowledge Devotion
War .................. gain Martial Weapon(Longsword), Weapon Focus(Longsword)
Law .................. Exchange for Law Devotion

Feats:
Education(Human bonus)
1st lvl: Extra Turning
3rd lvl: Touch of Healing(Reserve feat)

Extra Turning gives you 4 additional Turns(as if you had an 18 Cha) .... thus more opportunities to use Law Devotion or other Turn Undead uses

 

[GawainBS]

Actually, be careful if you trade in Knowledge for Knowledge Devotion. You loose access to Knowledge as a class skill. And if a DM bans DMM Persist outright, he'll probably ban easy means of getting great Knowledge checks without them being class skills.

[carnivore]

Actually, be careful if you trade in Knowledge for Knowledge Devotion. You loose access to Knowledge as a class skill. And if a DM bans DMM Persist outright, he'll probably ban easy means of getting great Knowledge checks without them being class skills.

that is why i included the feat: Education .... it also gives +1 with two different Knowledge Skills

 

[Velkro]

Thanks much folks! There's a paladin of Tyr in the party, as well as a couple sneaky chaotic rogues and psionists who tend to 1) disappear when the going gets tough, or 2) make carried items on party members disappear, so I went with someone who could ally with a reliable member of the group:
Cleric 3: STR 18 DEX 10 CON 15 INT 10 WIS 17 CHA 9
Domains: Law Devotion, War (longsword weapon focus)
Feats: Knowledge Devotion, Extra Turning, Power Attack
I plan to try for Church Inquisitor at Lvls 4-6, get "Blade of Force" feat, then hit up Ordained Champion and get "Holy Warrior" feat at level 9. If I play my cards right, using power attack and divine power at level 9, I'll have a +9 to hit and +35 damage without magic items and buffs. In addition, the plus up on will saves and CI's dispel bonus will complete the package. Plus I get to ROLL LOTS OF DICE while wading into melee, which is what D&D is about, yes?
Anyway, the weak points are lack of knowledge skill points for maximizing KD (but I'll get at least +1/+1 until higher levels), and a lack of divine metamagic. However, I'm pretty sure the DM would disallow DM Persist and I just don't have enough ability scores to maximize the DM Extend route. I'd really love to go cloistered cleric, but light armor and no dex would hurt my AC too much.

[carnivore]

i would not worry about AC too much ... since it is largely irrelavant ..notice:

Heavy Darkwood Shield + Mithral Breastplate = AC 7 , cost 4457gp = Light Armor
Mithral Half Plate = AC 7, cost 9600gp = Medium Armor

Cloistered Cleric also give 6 Skill points per level and has additional Skills to pick from ..... it is necessary if you want to gain the full benefit from Knowledge Devotion, since you need to spend skill points in 5 Knowledge Skills at a Minimum, and without Education feat most of the Knowledge Skills will be Cross Classed(the Granted power of the Knowledge Domain is what makes them Class Skills, but you give it up in exchange for the Feat Knowledge Devotion)

also your attributes are poorly distributed for what you want :
STR 18
DEX 10
CON 15 ............ this is too low for a character who plans on a lot of Melee combat
INT 10
WIS 17 ............ this does not need to be this high, since you plan on mainly Buffing yourself
CHA 9

i really dont think you need Power Attack at this point, since you wont be able to hit anything with it, if anything i would wait and take it @8th lvl(Ordained Champion 1) when you will be able to cast Divine Power(you get access to it at 7th lvl Cleric casting, but you wont have that until 8th lvl due to  Ordained Champion losses a caster progression at 1st)

 

[Velkro]

Regarding the AC question: Hehe, the campaign I’m in doesn’t hand out gp’s like candy; my last guy was lvl 8 and had approx 1,200gp to his name. We don’t get much treasure from each adventure…methinks it’ll take about 7 more levels to get 5k gp. And charging into combat with an AC of 14 vice 17 doesn't help matters much. Don't get me wrong, I'd absolutely go for the cloistered cleric if I didn't have total dump stats for both DEX AND INT. I'd love the skill points to max out Con and Spellcraft as well as kick up the KD feat, but <new cliche alert> at the end of the day <end cliche alert>, when the spells are gone, this guy will still have to go toe to toe in combat and the extra +3 or so to AC can make a difference.

I somewhat agree with your take on the KD feat, but at the same time, if the cloistered cleric sinks a bunch of skill pts into knowledge, he’ll sacrifice pts in Con and Spellcraft, which he’ll need to dispel magic and combat cast. Also, unless I’m reading something wrong, the Education Feat only grants about 1 additional Knowledge class skill with regard to the Knowledge Devotion Feat’s main benefit. Here is a sum of the six knowledge skills listed on page 78 of the PH:

Know(Arc)=Regular Cleric Class Skill
Know(Planes)=Regular Cleric Class Skill
Know(Rel)=Regular Cleric Class Skill
Know(Nature)=Regular Cleric Class Skill (that is to say, it can be taken as character class skill with the KD feat)
Know(Local)=Regular Cleric Cross-Class Skill (he can sink in 2pts initially for 1 rank, then can beef up when it becomes a class skill when taking Church Inq levels)
Know(Dungeoneering)=Regular Cleric Cross-Class Class Skill (can sink in 2 initially, then accept that a +1/+1 will be the norm forever but at least it’s something)

The other knowledge skills don’t pertain to monsters listed on page 78 of the PH.

Regarding Ability Scores, it was my understanding that the main Achilles heel for most melee-ists (read: Fighters) is Will saves, and I figured the bottom line was to boost WIS for extra spells, better Will saves, and a better DC in exhange for 1hp/level and a -1 on Fort Saves, which are good for most clerics and cleric-recommended prestige classes anyway. Specifically, in this case…
 
(CON 15), I plan to boost this to 16 at lvl 8, and after that, will boost WIS. Methinks WIS can help gain better Will saves and add’l higher-level spells (including Heal) later on, at the cost of a mere 1 hp/char level.
(WIS 17), this will ensure being able to cast Level 8&9 spells later on, as well as add ability bonus spells for spell levels 3, 4, 5. To me, 20hp over 20 levels is worth those spells (not to mention possible bonus spells at levels 6 and 7 if he gets WIS-enhancing item(s).

Regarding Power Attack, I also somewhat agree, but consider this: Power Attack translates to the following Atk/Dam Mods, assuming minimum KD rolls (+1/+1), using a regular joe longsword w/2hands, and no add’l buffs:
Lvls3-4, BAB+2: w/o PwrAtk: +8/+7; w/MaxPwrAtk: +6/+11
Lvl5 (OrdChamp), BAB+3: w/o PwrAtk: +9/+7; w/MaxPwrAtk: +6/+13
Lvl6 (OrdChamp), BAB+4: w/o PwrAtk: +10/+7; w/MaxPwrAtk: +6/+15
…and it keeps getting better…
Adding in the Law Devotion feat for two or three 10-round actions/day, and taking the Blade of Force feat at level 6, it increases to:
Lvls3-4, BAB+2: w/ PwrAtk&LD: +9/+11
Lvl5 (OrdChamp), BAB+3: w/PwrAtk&LD: +9/+13
Lvl6 (OrdChamp), BAB+4: w/o PwrAtk: +10/+10; w/MaxPwrAtk: +6/+18
Adding the Holy Warrior feat at level 9 increases the damage further, assuming he can keep a spell in reserve to fuel that effort.

[Hallack]

Actually only Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), and Knowledge (the planes) are on the cleric list for all clerics.  The other Knowledges they get based upon Domain choices.

Of course for Devotion that really only leaves Local, Nature, and Dungeoneering to be picked up and the Devotion feat itself will let you nab one as a class skill.

[Velkro]

Thanks Hallack, that's exactly what I was trying to say regarding the knowledge skills and the KD feat.

Once interesting question popped up during character building a cleric though: I can't find any RAWs that prohibit a cleric from taking both a domain and a devotion feat of the same name. With additional domain choices as a Cloistered Cleric, or bonus domains as a prestige class, it seems that it's legal to, say, grab the Knowledge Domain as well as the Knowledge Devotion feat.

Or, for example, taking the War Domain and War Devotion feat. Can anyone find anything to the contrary? This would seem interesting, especially if a Level 2 Fighter or Barbarian took "War Devotion" and then multiclassed into Cleric later on. Also, some deities have only 4 domains, so if the character gets to the point where he/she now has the opportunity to grab a 5th (e.g., a cloistered cleric/divine disciple/contemplative), I think it not fair, at least per the RAW, to tell them to suck it up after they've made a long-term investment.

If there's not a FAQ or other legit ruling on this issue, would you say it's therefore a DM's call?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

No reason you can't have both.  IIRC, clerics are suggested to take the ones in line with their odmains, even

[Felix Underwood]

Yeah, you don't have to give up the domain, if you invest a feat to pick up the domain feat... it's just many builds are feat-starved.

[KAUS]

Brilliant Work. Mad props for you.

[SlayVus]

So I'm playing a campaign where the DM isn't set out to kill the players, but doesn't have a problem with killing them if it happens during the natural course of the game. Well, I was playing a level 3 factotum and sadly I died during combat and I am re-rolling a new character.

So I will start off at level 4 and I am pretty much decided on Cloistered Cleric.

My base stats that I can put any where I choice are { 10, 13, 14, 15, 17, 17 }. I am a human, but as a bonus for my character background I provided to the DM I get a +1 Int. I also have 5 (FIVE) bonus attribute points I can allocate to those base stats to increase them up TO a maximum of 18. Aka, a 17 for Int would be an 18 and could not be increased further by a bonus attribute point. I am also mostly decided on being middle-aged to get a +1 to all Mental attributes and -1 to all physical.

These are stats I thought of using for my cleric, at level 4 with the aforementioned bonuses and level 4 stat point going to Wisdom.

Str - 10
Dex - 16
Con - 16
Int - 15
Wis - 20
Cha - 16

Any suggestions on how to rearrange this are welcome. My factotum was the skills-monkey when I died though, but there is another in the group(skill-monkey), but not as many skill points or class skills.

I haven't decided on any feats or picked a god from the DM's world. I do know though that the party needs a healer. All feats, etc. etc. have to be run by the DM for approval before I can actually play with the character. If the DM feels my character is broken, he will either remove my power or kill my character. House rules are that you can't play the same class per campaign or race three times per campaign.

Thanks in advance and also, next game is Friday.

House rule for AC = 10 + 1/2 Char Lvl Rounded Down + Armor + Shield + Dex + Int or Wis Mod + Size + Nat Arm + Deflec + 1 per 5 Ranks tumble + Misc. You lose Int/Wis mod to AC if you use a shield or wear armor.

Oh, MAJOR story point. ALL undead reside on ONE island that I am not on.

[Nubuxos]

Hey all,

I had a question regarding switching domains for feats and then re-aquireing the domain. Suppose I have, at level 10, the Travel domain and Knowledge domain and I want my next level up to dip in the contemplative PrC. Can I then trade in the travel domain for the feat and then get it back as the contemplative's bonus domain?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Hey all,

I had a question regarding switching domains for feats and then re-aquireing the domain. Suppose I have, at level 10, the Travel domain and Knowledge domain and I want my next level up to dip in the contemplative PrC. Can I then trade in the travel domain for the feat and then get it back as the contemplative's bonus domain?

You can switch a domain for the devotion feat, and then reacquire the domain through other means, yes.

[Sinfire Titan]

Hey all,

I had a question regarding switching domains for feats and then re-aquireing the domain. Suppose I have, at level 10, the Travel domain and Knowledge domain and I want my next level up to dip in the contemplative PrC. Can I then trade in the travel domain for the feat and then get it back as the contemplative's bonus domain?

You can switch a domain for the devotion feat, and then reacquire the domain through other means, yes.

The reverse is not true, however you can dip into Cloistered Cleric (if you read the Variant Base Classes section right) to do it anyway.