The 3.5 Cleric Handbook

[McPoyo]

Along that note, a cleric in a game I am running is using DMM:Chain to nail entire lines of guys with Command to "Fall". Having half the people about to charge into the party drop prone has pretty much ensured that "extra" turn the party is getting while the baddies burn an action to stand has made quite a difference for what would have been very hard fights, and made them much more manageable for the party to handle without serious risk to themselves.

[PhaedrusXY]

Along that note, a cleric in a game I am running is using DMM:Chain to nail entire lines of guys with Command to "Fall". Having half the people about to charge into the party drop prone has pretty much ensured that "extra" turn the party is getting while the baddies burn an action to stand has made quite a difference for what would have been very hard fights, and made them much more manageable for the party to handle without serious risk to themselves.

Yeah, even though there are few spells that it actually works on, Chain Spell is one of my favorite Metamagic feats. And of course, everything is better with DMM. A Chained (Greater) Dispel that individually targets every magic item on an enemy, as well as their own body, can really ruin their day.  Your allies will also love that Chained Greater Magic Weapon you give them in the morning, and if you buy a MM Rod of Reach Spell (or just take the feat), you can chain a lot more things like Magic Vestment, Harm, etc.

[Arcane-surge]

I didn't think you could Chain using Reach, because Reach says it turns a spell into a ray, and you can't chain rays. Ocular would work just fine, though.

[PhaedrusXY]

I didn't think you could Chain using Reach, because Reach says it turns a spell into a ray, and you can't chain rays. Ocular would work just fine, though.

Does it say that? I thought it just said it changed the range from touch to close.

Edit: It says it "effectively" turns it into a ray. But the spell still keeps its "target: one creature" line, so I'd say it isn't really a ray. I don't know, it sounds like it needs DM interpretation, unless WotC clarified this somewhere.

[McPoyo]

If the spell keeps "Target: one creature" it isn't a ray.

[PhaedrusXY]

If the spell keeps "Target: one creature" it isn't a ray.

It doesn't explicitly say that...

Reach Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit

You may cast a spell that normally has a range of touch at any distance up to 30 feet. The spell effectively becomes a ray, so you must succeed at a ranged touch attack to bestow the spell upon the recipient. A reach spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

But it also doesn't say that it loses the target. It just says you can now cast it up to 30 feet away. Presumably everything else stays the same, including the target line. /shrug.

It either becomes a target for Split Ray or Chain Spell. One way or the other, you can now make it hit more than one target per casting. (Of course Chain is preferable for most things.)

[McPoyo]

I think that may have been put in there to prevent people from auto-harming for free at reach.

Also, fixed range doesn't always mean ray, the conversion from touch to 30 foot reach that requires an RTA doesn't necessarily make it a ray, especially since it says "effectively becomes", and not "becomes". I think the word "effectively" is the hinge-pin on that one.

I've never run it as an actual ray, and neither have any DMs I've played with. It tends to make things more complex if you do change it to an actual ray, since you get into things like twinned split ray reach harm and other stupid stuff that players try to pull.

Or twinned split-ray sudden maximized enervating grasp or whatever the 2d4 negative levels one is.

[PhaedrusXY]

Yes, but if you don't rule it as a Ray, you get Reach Chained Harm, which is much worse than a Twinned, Split Ray one.  

I think the RAW is certainly ambiguous, and with how freakin' difficult it is to find decent spells to use with Chain Spell, I'd be inclined to allow it as a DM. (I'd also have no problem using it myself with NPCs, if I did allow it. )

[McPoyo]

Yes, but if you don't rule it as a Ray, you get Reach Chained Harm, which is much worse than a Twinned, Split Ray one. 

I think the RAW is certainly ambiguous, and with how freakin' difficult it is to find decent spells to use with Chain Spell, I'd be inclined to allow it as a DM. (I'd also have no problem using it myself with NPCs, if I did allow it. )

It's still hp blasting as a cleric

[Jasuhn]

Hi.  I'm new here.  This is my first post.  I haven't read all 24 pages to this point, but I had a question about your rating for the death devotion.  It is only 5 negative levels at level 20, but it is 5 negative levels per target.  If you can full attack with haste, that's 5 negative levels per round.  Now a cleric is probably way better off doing other things, but for a melee focused cleric, that could be 50 negative levels if somehow a fight lasted that long.  Not to mention, that's 5 points of penalty to any save or suck for a full attack.  Followed with a quickened save or suck, it might be useful.  Just saying I think it could be at least an average feat, not quite a red one.  I'll also point out that you can give your target the 5, then just reactivate the feat and probably give them another 5 for the cost of 3 turning attempts, as it is a separate use of the power.  I could be wrong on that second bit, but the feat does specifically say:
 
"You can bestow only one negative level per target for every four character levels you possess (minimum one, maximum five negative levels at 20th level)"

[McPoyo]

While that is one potential reading, you need to take the entire paragraph in context with that sentence. You bestow one negative level per hit (previous sentence), with a maximum number of negative levels to a single target equal to 1/4 levels. So at level 8, you can bestow a negative level on every attack, but no more than two per target. At level 20, you can bestow one negative level per attack, to a maximum of five to a single target.

You're better off casting one of the enervation type spells, especially since it would trigger the save DC off your wisdom instead of your charisma.

That's my reading of it.

[Jasuhn]

I don't think enervate gets a save.  And I am not saying it's fully optimized, but compared to enervate, at level 8, enervate has one target geting 2.5 negative levels (average) at range.  As a melee cleric, at level 8, you get 2 attacks per round so on one target you can get 2 negative levels on one target.  And if you hit on an AoO against someone else, you've hit 3 negative levels in one round, albeit at melee range, with that can be saved against, but, are the permanent this save in a day or it's permanent variety (judging by the lack of duration on them). And you can do it again next round, just to someone else.  The save or it sticks variety probably means it's better for an enemy NPC than the characters unless the DM is running a campaign where you can actualy drop the bbeg's level so he's easier to kill when you finally get to him.  But I still think, that it is usable as a power that will probably last all fight, and at level 1 is save or die.  Of course, don't forget to kill them good and dead or they may come back as a 4 hd guy, but still.
For a melee cleric, you can think of it as an option to be a mobile penalty to everything (that's pretty much what a negative level is).

Editted in: I am just thinking the feat probably shouldn't be red.  Maybe it should, but it's probably a light red.  Not saying it deserves blue or anything.  But it is an option that can work.  While you can't quicken a spell in the same round you activate it, the effect lasts long enough that you could quicken enervate and still full attack for a potential 9 levels to a single target in a round at 20.

[McPoyo]

Don't forget the second iterative attack from your Bab is 5 worse, and isn't a touch attack, unlike enervation.

[Jasuhn]

True, it is less likely to hit.  But if you're a melee cleric, I dont think that is an unacceptable thing as you don't lose the charge, and still have it floating for the next round.  Granted, it's a wasted attempt, but when you have 10 rounds to use this, it isn't horrible.  Again, I don't pretend the feat is blue.  But do you think it is red?  At level 1 it's a save or die, and after that, it's an anything I hit has save penalties and attack penalties so it is a reasonable debuff that costs you a swift action in the round you use it, but nothing after.  And giving an enemy you are in melee range a penalty to hit you really isn't a bad idea. 

[kevin_video]

This is great an all, but what about a lvl 1 cleric? Most of those feats are meant for clerics will decent DEX, and are already at least 5th level. Especially the metamagic feats. So what do you take when you're just starting out with basic average stats, except the high WIS, and are human who needs two feats? Kind of in trouble with what's listed there. Especially if the amount of undead you'll be facing is minimal.

[Nihilus]

We rolled for stats, so these are mine
STR 9
Dex 8
Con 11
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 15

Wow... those are some pretty bad stats... I'd have probably suggested picking a race with a Con boost, like dwarf. I guess once you get Divine Power it will be tolerable, though. Are you going with the Divine Metamagic: Persistent, route? It looks like you won't get that till level 9 with this build.

I feel pretty lame right now, as i dont know how to really use it to much of an advantage. So far I have been just healing other party members/ even just feeding dead allies potions.
Am I doing something wrong?

Will cover this at the end.

I am not sure how Eldritch blast works yet. So what are the key functions of using it? I know it gets better as i become an Eldritch disciple, but I dont know how many times i can use it, its range, what i can do with it, etc.
Can someone explain to me why it is so good?

Did you look at the actual warlock class? It tells you the range there...

You can use it as many times as you want. It has unlimited uses. I'd say it's not all that good, but later on in this build as I understand it, you'll be able to use it to deliver spells. So it's not about the damage, it's about using it for that. Of course... you can't do that yet.

Also what is good about the devotion feats?
I still not picking up on that.

They all have very different abilities. So you can't just say what's good about all of them. It's like trying to say what's good about 50 random people in a room.

Knowledge Devotion is good because it is basically free bonuses to attack and damage, as long as you put at least one rank in the relevant knowledge skill for a creature.

Actually, what is so good about the travel/knowledge domains anyway?
I have yet to use even a single spell from either of the domains. Am I missing something here?

Why would you not at least cast Longstrider? It lasts 1 hr/level, and boosts your speed. Why would you not cast that? I don't understand... It doesn't take up a normal spell slot, so you're losing nothing from casting it, except the ability to cast one of your other domain spells... And if you ever get grappled, hit with an Entangle spell, or anything like that, you'll see what's so good about the Travel domain. (Hint: Go read the special ability)

Also, if you cast Identify from the cloistered cleric spell list, you don't have to use the material component (the 100 gp pearl that wizards/sorcerers have to use). I also find Unseen Servant to be quite useful. It lasts 1 hr/lvl, and you can have it drag around a dummy/mannequin in front of your party to set off traps, lure out hiding monsters, etc. It can also open doors to set off traps, etc.

I would suggest trading out the knowledge domain from this build for the Knowledge Devotion feat for free. The knowledge domain itself isn't all that great. So the free feat is probably better. I think you'll have most or all of the knowledge skills as class skills from your other classes, anyway. Right? (I didn't check)

What are the uses of turning as well?
I know it powers divine metamagic, but there are barely any undead we have come across.

None. If you don't encounter undead, and don't have DMM or other divine feats yet, it is useless.

I guess most importantly, when does this build start getting good and
are there any key things I should know as being a cleric? (Items, armor, abilities, etc?)
I know these are a lot of questions, so thanks in advance!!!

From looking at it, I'd say it starts getting good at 9th level. That's when you'll have Divine Metamagic (Persistent) and Eldritch Glaive. That's the meat of the build right there it seems.

Right now, I'd focus on casting spells, since your physical abilities are craptastic. You have a good Wisdom, though. So your save DCs should be decent. So you might try Hold Person when you're fighting humanoids. That's basically a "save or die", as long as one of your party members is nearby to deliver a Coup De Grace to the target if they fail the save. Command is a so-so "save or die", also as you can command someone to give you their weapons/holy symbols/spell components/etc, basically making them useless afterward. Protection from Evil is like "immunity to enchantment effects" at 1st level.

You are right in that I am taking the DMM route.
Since you said my stats are such crap, i'm bothering my DM to give all our group some extra abilty points or something. (What points are important for me?)
i looked up this point buy system here: http://www.frontiernet.net/~jamesstarlight/Increasing3eStats.html
Its our first time playing, so I'm not sure if this is the best method or not.
So if i trade in my knowledge domain for the feat (this is the best route, right?)
What should I get instead. This leaves two open feats for me to choose from.
I've looked over the feats section on the first page, but the suggested feats look pretty narrow in terms of how to use them.
If i've been following this build exactly, what should I work on?
Also how exactly do reserve feats work? More specifically, the summon elemental one.
Are there any main items I/my party should be getting? (any general/cleric staples/equipment?)

Thanks in advance for the help.

EDIT: alright, so we played another session, and now I am level 7, but I barely did anything (i played through as level 5) Is this something that is a matter of time or what? I was completely outshined by a war blade... LAME!
My DM is also rather against me, because I pushed him to be able to get the Knight of the Raven and the Eldritch Disciple Prestige classes, so to spite me, he made obnoxiously power for PrC's for the rest of the group.
Yeah, these prestige classes are super cheesy. Like he gave them some move that gives them +20 to strength 2 times a day, and then they can use it up to 10 times a day. Its pretty bad. They also get +10 BAB withing 5 levels. WTF
What should I do to outshine them or get him back?
He's only making them super strong because he wants me to have the crappiest character... which sucks
because i put all this time into researching for mine.
Or am i going along this the wrong way?
Any help would be much appreciated.

[Rebel7284]

If your DM is against you, there is nothing you can do.

[Havok4]

Talk to the DM and try and work something out. Nothing else would really work.

[snakeman830]

From the sounds of it, I suggest Steve Therapy for the DM.  Does anyone still have the link to that?  I hope it didn't die with 339.

[Akalsaris]

Screw being a cleric, start taking those power PrCs!