The 3.5 Cleric Handbook

[Surreal]

I was just browsing through Fiendish Codex 2 and came across the Divine Defiance feat. Now, I'm pretty sure RAI would say that you simply get to do the whole counterspell routine without needing to ready an action (ie: you'd still need to spend the appropriate spell slot). The wording of the feat is kind of fuzzy though, and it looks like all you need to do (assuming you have a dispel prepared) is spend a turn attempt to automatically counter.

[Tshern]

That indeed is the case. This naturally became very popular in the counterspelling compilation at 339...

[Cyrocloud]

The only thing I have to say is that with the questionable stuff on the first page in the CD errata I'm 97% sure they specified you could only use turn undead attempts with it.  I tried it once because extra turn gives you 4 more turn attempts of every type you have, but I got shut down with errata.  The only reason I'm 97% sure is because it might of been a CustServ responce I don't totally remeber.

[AfterCrescent]

The only thing I have to say is that with the questionable stuff on the first page in the CD errata I'm 97% sure they specified you could only use turn undead attempts with it.  I tried it once because extra turn gives you 4 more turn attempts of every type you have, but I got shut down with errata.  The only reason I'm 97% sure is because it might of been a CustServ responce I don't totally remeber.

It's actually in the FAQ that it doesn't work, but that's not errata, just DM advice, so it's still debatable.

@ Surreal:
Divine Defiance is a decent choice and Tshern is right, Omen of Peace's Counterspelling Compilation covers it well.

[PhaedrusXY]

I didn't read the whole thread, but no mention of cleric necromancers? They make the best ones, especially if you take Divine Magician to pick up a few of the good necromancy spells from the Wiz/Sorc list. Did you leave this out intentionally, because there are already entire threads devoted to it?

Edit: Links
K's Revised Necromancer's Handbook
My own short thread on the Master of Shrouds PrC

[AfterCrescent]

Actually, yeah. I love cleric necromancers, but that's a really specific archetype of clerics, and I know there are plenty of necro-handbooks out there. If you don't mind, I'll add those links into the handbook for reference

[PhaedrusXY]

You don't have to ask to use anything of mine.

[AfterCrescent]

All right, updated the first post with another role: Themes.

Thanks for the necromancy links PhaedrusXY

If anyone else has any thematic ideas or links to threads, let me know.

[DetectiveJabsco]

hey after what would you say is a good break point for the Sovereign Speaker?
i was thinking something like 5th. Like Cleric5/SS5/Cont10 what do you think?
I was going for a sage like build.

[AfterCrescent]

hey after what would you say is a good break point for the Sovereign Speaker?
i was thinking something like 5th. Like Cleric5/SS5/Cont10 what do you think?
I was going for a sage like build.

It depends on the game. I can easily see going up to 9 levels if you're allowed to take any domains you want. If you're playing strictly Eberron, then your domain choices are more limited and likely fewer levels will be optimal.  If you're going for the "sage" idea, I'd actually recommend the Cloistered Cleric for the knowledge skills and skill points as well as dwarf since dwarves can take the racial feat in Races of Stone that allow Wisdom to Knowledge Checks.

[DetectiveJabsco]

You actually took the ideas right out of my build. He has both Dwarf and Cloistered cleric, And I'm allowed any Domain, do you think 9 levels and the six of contem?

[Omen of Peace]

Very nice guide !  Too bad I never ever play clerics.  >

I'll try to offer some more constructive criticism when I get the time to read it in more depth.

I was just browsing through Fiendish Codex 2 and came across the Divine Defiance feat. Now, I'm pretty sure RAI would say that you simply get to do the whole counterspell routine without needing to ready an action (ie: you'd still need to spend the appropriate spell slot). The wording of the feat is kind of fuzzy though, and it looks like all you need to do (assuming you have a dispel prepared) is spend a turn attempt to automatically counter.

For what it's worth I do not condone this interpretation. I admit it's potentially valid, but the feat is good enough as it is. (You can counterspell SLAs with it !!) There's an Eberron feat that allows you to automatically counter if you spend (spell level + 1) turn attempts, so a better DD would make it (even more) useless.

I should add an FAQ entry about that in the Dispelling Compilation - I lost my to-do list along the way.

[Ieniemienie]

Just a note: Should Lumi be under the LA+2 races, when it also has 2 Outsider HD making it ECL4?

[AfterCrescent]

You actually took the ideas right out of my build. He has both Dwarf and Cloistered cleric, And I'm allowed any Domain, do you think 9 levels and the six of contem?

Heh

Well normally I recommend either one or 6 levels of Contemplative for the bonus domains. The extra abilities are decent, but not amazing, imo. You could really get away with Sovereign Speaker 10/Contemplative 1.  Depending on your alignment and goals you could either grab another PrC (Church Inquisitor, Divine Oracle, Sacred Exorcist, etc) to take in the midst of your domain grabs.  One thing I definitely recommend is trading Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion at level six and picking Knowledge Domain right back up for the skills, if your DM doesn't get upset with that.

With ~14 domains for your character, you have a lot of choices. At this stage you should probably find which domains offer the best spells you want and which ones give the best abilities for what you want.  If you end up with less than 14 domains total, you can drop a couple SS levels.

Very nice guide !  Too bad I never ever play clerics.  >

I'll try to offer some more constructive criticism when I get the time to read it in more depth.

Thanks!   I look forward to another viewpoint.

I was just browsing through Fiendish Codex 2 and came across the Divine Defiance feat. Now, I'm pretty sure RAI would say that you simply get to do the whole counterspell routine without needing to ready an action (ie: you'd still need to spend the appropriate spell slot). The wording of the feat is kind of fuzzy though, and it looks like all you need to do (assuming you have a dispel prepared) is spend a turn attempt to automatically counter.

For what it's worth I do not condone this interpretation. I admit it's potentially valid, but the feat is good enough as it is. (You can counterspell SLAs with it !!) There's an Eberron feat that allows you to automatically counter if you spend (spell level + 1) turn attempts, so a better DD would make it (even more) useless.

Agreed. I think the feat is good enough as is, but that's why I pointed it towards your compilation, which is very useful.

Just a note: Should Lumi be under the LA+2 races, when it also has 2 Outsider HD making it ECL4?

Yes, it is ECl 4, but the LA is technically +2.  It basically goes back to my belief that LA should never be taken by a PC unless it can be bought off (or is +1 with amazing abilities).  In a LA buy-off allowed system, even though you still end up with 2 outsider HD, which don't progress casting, you'll have 18 Casting levels, and that is well worth it.  The Lumi, in my opinion, is like the Saint template. It's just fucking amazing for what you're paying.  Outsider HD, all good saves, 8+int skills. It's just all worth it. And that's ignoring the amazing immunities.

[dman11235]

Ya know, looking at the sample build, is there an accepted progression for damage past the DMG table?  Cause the one I made has it go 12/16/22/28.  That's +2/+2/+4/+4/+6/+6/+8/+8 as far as number of dice go.  The one used is double the dice two before that level (4x2 is 8, 6x2 is 12, 8x2 is 16, 12x2=24...).

Also, I don't think the Battlefist and INA stack like that.  It's on the same lines as powerful build and monkey grip, I feel.  Please, someone prove me wrong.

[AfterCrescent]

Well after examining the table, it seems that the numbers double every two steps. But then again, relooking at it, your expansion on the table makes sense, too. As far as I know, there hasn't been an "official" progression, but the doubling one is the one I've seen used most often. I suppose it is up to each individual DM, though.

Also, as for Battlefist, it actually makes the damage for a natural slam 1d8, so INA should stack with it. I don't see a reason why not.  It specifically affects slam damage and isn't one of those cases where you "treat it as one size larger" or somesuch.

[dman11235]

Yeah, I've seen the doubling on CO before, but on my own I developed this other method.  Stupid thing is that both fit the pattern perfectly, and are about equally complex.

On Battlefist: Weren't you using it for the unarmed strike?

EDIT: I may have found another problem with the sample: how is he binding it (Totem Avatar)to his shoulder chakra?

[AfterCrescent]

On Battlefist: No. The battlefist is to increase the slam damage which increases further with strength devotion. Add in Beast Strike from Dragon 355 and you do Unarmed Damage + Slam damage with an unarmed strike.

On Totem Avatar: 7th level cleric spell (Open Lesser Chakra).  My apologies for not mentioning that explicitly. It lasts 24 hours so is a great deal in that build.

[dman11235]

Base Unarmed Strike Damage: 2d10->12d8(Giant Size)->16d8(Fanged Ring)->24d8(Battlefist)

It doesn't stack with INA I don't think.  I'd like to be proved wrong, as that would increase my record unarmed damage and it would give me another item to suggest for monks.

[Tshern]

Where is the build that quote refers to? I just need to know why Earth hammer isn't in the quote.