The 3.5 Cleric Handbook

[AfterCrescent]

That is an awesome character concept. I love it.

However, as Akalsaris points out, Hobgobs aren't worth their LA, sadly.  The Dragon Magic version of races are all on par with their non-draconic counterparts. So I group Sunscorch Hobgobs into the same boat as below:

• Hobgoblin^MM - Nothing stellar here. I'm tempted to argue that they shouldn't even be LA+1 races.  There's no reason not to play them, but there are much better choices. With buy-off these are the epitome of average.
  

[Optimator]

I am fully aware of how the hobgoblin LA is unwarranted.  I meant it was decent for clerics and one of the better +1 LA races (despite still not being stellar).

[AfterCrescent]

My point is that it's decent. but it's not one of the better +1LA races. It's the epitome of average. Same goes for the draconic counterpoint.

It's colored black on my list because it's average, not one of the better ones. It would have been blue if that was the case.

[archangel.arcanis]

A PrC that wasn't listed, and the source is the obvious reason why, that is good is Knight of the Raven from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. It is a good class that meshes well with Ordained Champion in that it progresses turning at -2 and you don't have to deal with the undead stuff of bone knight. Because while bone knight is the better class there are many DM's that frown on it and the extensive use of undead.

[PhaedrusXY]

My point is that it's decent. but it's not one of the better +1LA races. It's the epitome of average. Same goes for the draconic counterpoint.

It's colored black on my list because it's average, not one of the better ones. It would have been blue if that was the case.

Yeah, but they have the [Awesome] subtype.

[AfterCrescent]

archangel.arcanis, Yup. Someone mentioned it a couple pages back. I need to find the time to go through these 20 pages and make some changes. One of which is adding KotR. I actually really like the class. Yeah it's no Bone Knight, but it's fun.

And yes, Phaedrus, Hobgobs do have the [Awesome] subtype. Just wish that subtype wasn't a +1LA subtype

[BowenSilverclaw]

My point is that it's decent. but it's not one of the better +1LA races. It's the epitome of average. Same goes for the draconic counterpoint.

It's colored black on my list because it's average, not one of the better ones. It would have been blue if that was the case.

Yeah, but they have the [Awesome] subtype.

archangel.arcanis, Yup. Someone mentioned it a couple pages back. I need to find the time to go through these 20 pages and make some changes. One of which is adding KotR. I actually really like the class. Yeah it's no Bone Knight, but it's fun.

And yes, Phaedrus, Hobgobs do have the [Awesome] subtype. Just wish that subtype wasn't a +1LA subtype

Fellow Hobgoblin fans, excellent

[Operation Shoestring]

I haven't checked the wording of the other Divine Feats, but from your description I could see it argued either way.
1. There are feats that require Turning elements, so you can obviously use those turn attempts to fuel the feats.
-Or-
2. Since they're called out specifically you can ONLY use the Turn elements for those feats and have to use Turn undead for others.


Either way it's really a DM's call, but whichever method you argue, good luck.

Rebuke [Subtype] from domains cannot be used to power divine feats.

However, there are several cleric ACF's (such as Channel Incarnum and Rebuke Vermin) that do function.  Take one of those, and then PrC into Sacred Exorcist to double up on turning.

[AfterCrescent]

Rebuke [Subtype] from domains cannot be used to power divine feats.

If that's your call. It's in the debatable trick section for a reason.

[kevin_video]

Okay, so I have a question:

Improved TurningPHB - Even when optimizing your turning efficiency, you'll likely avoid this feat. The +1 to turning level can be handled many other ways. If you have all of those and still want more, then you might want to consider this, but why waste a feat when you just spend a little money instead?

Empower Turning - If you're using your turn attempts to power other things, pass on it. Being able to turn more creatures is nice.  Being able to turn creatures with more HD would be better.

These are good points, but they were never emphasized on afterwards. At least not that I could see. So I have to ask, what ways are there to be able to turn creatures of more HD? Is it a weapon ability, an amour ability, a magic item, what? Because, yes, being able to turn creatures with more HD WOULD be better.

[PhaedrusXY]

This handbook does a good job of covering Turning: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872990/Comprehensive_Guide_to_Turning

[BowenSilverclaw]

Okay, so I have a question:

Improved TurningPHB - Even when optimizing your turning efficiency, you'll likely avoid this feat. The +1 to turning level can be handled many other ways. If you have all of those and still want more, then you might want to consider this, but why waste a feat when you just spend a little money instead?

Empower Turning - If you're using your turn attempts to power other things, pass on it. Being able to turn more creatures is nice.  Being able to turn creatures with more HD would be better.

These are good points, but they were never emphasized on afterwards. At least not that I could see. So I have to ask, what ways are there to be able to turn creatures of more HD? Is it a weapon ability, an amour ability, a magic item, what? Because, yes, being able to turn creatures with more HD WOULD be better.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3705.msg126066#msg126066

Enjoy

[PhaedrusXY]

Okay, so I have a question:

Improved TurningPHB - Even when optimizing your turning efficiency, you'll likely avoid this feat. The +1 to turning level can be handled many other ways. If you have all of those and still want more, then you might want to consider this, but why waste a feat when you just spend a little money instead?

Empower Turning - If you're using your turn attempts to power other things, pass on it. Being able to turn more creatures is nice.  Being able to turn creatures with more HD would be better.

These are good points, but they were never emphasized on afterwards. At least not that I could see. So I have to ask, what ways are there to be able to turn creatures of more HD? Is it a weapon ability, an amour ability, a magic item, what? Because, yes, being able to turn creatures with more HD WOULD be better.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3705.msg126066#msg126066

Enjoy

Thanks. Wish I'd looked over this before we started our latest adventure in the Way of the Wizard game. I figured with only 3 cleric levels, my turning wasn't even worth using. I could have afforded that Flametouched Holy Symbol, though.

[kevin_video]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3705.msg126066#msg126066

Enjoy

Can those items stack? Like a sceptre of the netherworld AND a phylactery of undead turning (whatever that looks like/slot it takes) would give you +7 to your turning level. Meaning that a 7th level cleric would be 14th, and could destroy 7 HD undead, correct?

[PhaedrusXY]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3705.msg126066#msg126066

Enjoy

Can those items stack? Like a sceptre of the netherworld AND a phylactery of undead turning (whatever that looks like/slot it takes) would give you +7 to your turning level. Meaning that a 7th level cleric would be 14th, and could destroy 7 HD undead, correct?

Yeah, they stack. As long as things are not labeled as the same bonus type (enhancement, etc), or from a duplicate of the same item/ability, then they stack.

[kevin_video]

Yeah, they stack. As long as things are not labeled as the same bonus type (enhancement, etc), or from a duplicate of the same item/ability, then they stack.

So basically they're considered unnamed bonuses then. That's good to know.
Second part of the question though, can it destroy the undead with that many bonuses? Like an 8th level cleric with enough bonuses to give him +10 to his turning goes up against a 5 HD lich that has +4 resistance. To destroy something you need double their HD. So you'd normally need 10 to destroy it, but they have +4 resistance, so you'd need 14. The cleric with off its bonuses has 18 for turning. Does this do it, or just turn it?

[snakeman830]

Turn Resistance is also figured in when destroying, so a 5HD Vampire (Lich's by default have 11 caster levels, but the minimum for a vampire is 5HD) counts as being a 9HD undead, so your effective turning level would have to be at leas 18 to destroy it without using Sun Domain or a similar ability.

[kevin_video]

Turn Resistance is also figured in when destroying, so a 5HD Vampire (Lich's by default have 11 caster levels, but the minimum for a vampire is 5HD) counts as being a 9HD undead, so your effective turning level would have to be at leas 18 to destroy it without using Sun Domain or a similar ability.

That's exactly what I needed to know. Because if it's destroyed by a good cleric, it's controlled by an evil one. Booyah!

I'll have to look for a rebuking handbook, if one exists. I'm confused on the "can only control a total of X HD". I need to know if that means a total of (ie 4 HD = 4 skeletons at 1 HD each), or you can command an army of them so long as they aren't higher than that (ie 4 HD = army or skeletons and zombies).

[GawainBS]

It's total HD: 4 skellies with 1 HD each or 2 with 2 each or 1 with 4 HD, etc.

[kevin_video]

It's total HD: 4 skellies with 1 HD each or 2 with 2 each or 1 with 4 HD, etc.

Cool, thanks for that.