Psion shaper 20 vs. Constructor

[Havok4]

Okay I am having some character creation issues. I want to create a Warforged psion (shaper) for a game I am in, but I cannot decide whether to take the constructor prestige class or not, the class can be found here https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b. I do not like the idea of losing manifester levels and the 60 or so pp that those two level will give me. Also the capstone ability of the constructor can be imitated in a limited way by the mind's eye shape alternate class feature personal construct as seen here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a. But the constructor has some very good class features and would make my character very good at making astral constructs, especially for utility purposes. The two options seem almost perfectly balanced to me and I am having a hard time choosing one. There is also the consideration that creating too many constructs would slow down the game and if this could be mitigated that would make the constructor seem the better choice. I would welcome any advice on which of the two paths to choose.

[BowenSilverclaw]

I don't have that much experience with Shapers, but from what I know you can at least ofset the PP loss with a bunch of +1 Manifester Arrows. Aside from that, wasn't there some kind nerf on Astral Construct in Complete Psionics that limits the number of Psychic Constructs you can have active at the same time? I'm not sure how Constructor changes that, but it's something you might want to look into

Good luck,
Bowen

[Agita]

Does your DM allow Magic of Incarnum? If he does, taking Midnight Augmentation and some feat that gives you a point of essentia would make yout Astral Constructs a great deal cheaper and go a long way toward mitigating the loss of power points compared to straight Shaper (of course, straight shaper can take the two feats as well). Alternatively, see what your DM says about allowing Practiced Manifester to give you extra pp.

[Havok4]

Does your DM allow Magic of Incarnum? If he does, taking Midnight Augmentation and some feat that gives you a point of essentia would make yout Astral Constructs a great deal cheaper and go a long way toward mitigating the loss of power points compared to straight Shaper (of course, straight shaper can take the two feats as well). Alternatively, see what your DM says about allowing Practiced Manifester to give you extra pp.

Wouldn't practiced manifester only give extra pp from the intelligence bonus pp? Also I do not want to get into magic of incarnum as my dm is not familiar with it and neither am I, so it would be best for the group if I avoided it. Also I was wondering how I could use a large number of created constructs without slowing the game down during combat, any advice on that front would be extremely helpful.

[PhaedrusXY]

Make up cards with stats for the various constructs you make, and roll the dice in batches. It is a toss-up, as to which is better. If you really want to focus on making constructs, I'd go with the PrC. With Practiced Manifester, you won't be behind on the level of constructs you can summon, and with Overchannel + Talented, you can actually be ahead.

[Omen of Peace]

What level do you start at ? What level do you expect to finish at ?

In most cases I prefer straight Psion (with the ACF you mentioned, which is really cool and available early) because I also hate losing MLs (it's just my opinion - in matters of taste you should be the final arbiter !). But if you start at a very high level you could go for Constructor : the delay in powers known and the lost PPs don't matter as much.

As for managing Astral Constructs... start by not creating too many at the same time. Have the stats ready for the abilities you want to use depending on the AC you want to use (this particular AC will have +X bonus to trip checks, etc...) - use cards or a spreadsheet. I've only used several summons in PbP where time is not an issue so I can't help you beyond those simple principles.

[veekie]

For that last, preparing a set of stats for the common menu combinations you use for combat constructs is one. Bringing your own minis for them is good too, you'd need some variety so you can identify which construct is which at a glance.

[Bozwevial]

Just a side note: If your DM gives you a hard time by pointing out the Astral Construct nerf from CPsi, point out that Summon Monster spells don't have the same restriction.

[awaken DM golem]

Also, the upgrade (minimal) to Shapers, is right next door to the Constructor.
https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a

iirc - carnivore has a build in the Psion guide, over on the handbooks page.
Satandard (hey where'd that "a" come from) build includes getting Metamorph power via Expanded Knowledge.
Metamorphic Transfer feat after that, is reasonable compensation, for losing the 2 MLs.
Share it with the extended constructs, ride them, blow them up, whatever.

Constructor gives all sorts of strange things to do with the ACs.
The CPsi nerf, makes you have only one at a time.
Kinda like how Druids can only summon one at a time, right  boo.
Ignore the CPsi nerf, and this mention of it.
ACs + Constructor is still not quite as versatile as Summon Monster, but then you get to do other things.

EDIT - wow, 3 overlapping posts, hopefully nobody thinks I am stepping on their metamorphed toes (wink).

[Havok4]

Given that I am going to name the character Legion I think that an astral construct focus works quite well. Another possibility I thought of was to take the alternate class feature and skip the 10th level of constructor so I only end up losing one manifester level. Does that idea sound viable? I do like the idea of being able to create small armies but a normal shaper 20 would likely be more versatile. That is kind of the crux of my decision, whether to specialize in constructs at the exclusion of other things or to be more of a generalist.

[awaken DM golem]

Very viable.
Yeah, I just checked carnivore's guide over here, and there's no Constructor build. Oops.
Losing 1ML, is plain old not a problem.
And the combo of the quickened "special" construct, does kinda get rid of the need for the 10th level of the PrC.

Skin of the Construct feat IS in his guide.
That works well with any construct based build. Versatile, cheap, fly for 1 feat, etc ...

[Havok4]

Okay here is my currently planned character, up to level twenty.

Warforged St:11 Dex: 14 Con: 18 Int:18 Wis: 13 Cha: 11
Psion1: Psicrystal affinity, Boost Construct
Psion2
Psion3:Extend power
Psion4:+1 int
Psion5:Favored construct alternate class feature
Psion6:Overchannel
Constructor 1:
Constructor 2:+1 int
Constructor 3:Talented
Constructor 4:
Constructor 5:
Constructor 6:Psicrystal containment +1 int
Constructor 7:
Constructor 8:
Constructor 9:Psionic Meditation
Psion7:+1 int
Psion8:
Psion9: Unknown feat
Psion10:Unknown feat
Psion11:+1 int

Any recommendations for the last two feats?

[woodenbandman]

Why no capstone on Constructor? Just take practiced manifester. That capstone spells free quickened powers, son! Quicken an astral construct then shoot some other doohicky.

[Havok4]

Why no capstone on Constructor? Just take practiced manifester. That capstone spells free quickened powers, son! Quicken an astral construct then shoot some other doohicky.

Because the alternate class feature personal construct.

Personal Construct

You have a favored astral construct form that you can summon at a moment's notice.
Level: 5th.
Replaces: The bonus feat at 5th level.
Prerequisite: You must know the astral construct power.
Benefit: You can create a specific astral construct that you have chosen as your favored as if you had the Quickened Power feat, by only sacrificing your psionic focus. This personal construct, once chosen, always has the same abilities and appearance every time you summon it. Each time you gain a level, you may change the abilities and appearance of your favored construct.

Which basically allows me to get the capstone ability at 5th level with some limitations. This way I only lose one manifester level.

[woodenbandman]

Hmm... Interesting. I like it.

I should have taken it with my warforged shaper. Hmm...

Anyways, Midnight Augmentation, while great, only reduces the augmentation cost on Astral Construct by one, because it is limited by the level of the power. You can invest exactly 1 essentia into that, so you reduce the augment cost by 1. I wish you could make it higher, but alas. Good news is, it's switchable every day and it comes with its own essentia, so you get cheaper augmentation for the cost of a feat. Nice!

[Havok4]

Anyways, Midnight Augmentation, while great, only reduces the augmentation cost on Astral Construct by one, because it is limited by the level of the power. You can invest exactly 1 essentia into that, so you reduce the augment cost by 1. I wish you could make it higher, but alas. Good news is, it's switchable every day and it comes with its own essentia, so you get cheaper augmentation for the cost of a feat. Nice!

I would use that and my DM would likely allow it but I think it just ends up being too much bother to introduce an entirely new system to a game even if I would only be using it for one thing. Although I could use one of my open feats for that it would not kick in until 18th level.

[Zarothar]

First off: In my opinion, losing a couple of ML in the course of a PrC is not a problem. It delays your access to new levels of powers, yes, but some of the best Psion powers are Level 1/2/3/4. Case in point: Astral Construct, the favoured power of any Constructor, is a Level 1 power. Practised Manifester means that you can augment any power that you know to exactly the same level as a Psion 20. If your focus is on some of the excellent augmentable lower level powers (such as Astral Construct or Energy Missile [or Vigor, which EVERY Psion should take]), you're not TOO badly off, as long as the class abilities are worthwhile.

Secondly: Constructor is one of those cases where losing the ML is fine. Obviously, if you're taking the PrC, Astral Constructs should be your focus; if you're not "that kind of girl--- I mean, Shaper", then you'd probably want to go Psion 20. Basically, if you plan on using AC in just about every combat, then it's a good idea; if you're only dabbling in it, then the two ML is probably too much of a hit.

Now, if you are focused on AC, I think the Constructor tradeoff is worth it. You can buff your constructs up even more through extra menu options, and you effectively get an even better version of Extend Power applied to all your constructs (1 min/level duration). As for Utility Construct, that's just plain useful and cool. Enhanced Construction will save you an amazing amount of PP, most likely more than making up for the lost ML.

Quickened Construction... Well, I personally think it's worth the loss of PP and powers known, but your mileage may vary. That's the only level I'm not completely sure about taking, although I probably would (if I were you). Again, YMMV.  

By the way, AC is not that great of a power to take at Level 1, as it will only last a single round - not enough time to do much, frankly. I'd suggest you take it at level 2, unless you need it from the beginning for fluff reasons. My suggestion for a first level Shaper would be Vigor, Minor Creation (look around for a guide to using abusing that power), and something of your choice. Also, don't forget to get Ecto Protection.

(By the way, if you ARE forced to play with the Astral Construct nerf, the 9th level ability basically allows you to get around some of that problem. Suck on THAT, stupid Ectopic Adept.)

[Agita]

Hmm... Interesting. I like it.

I should have taken it with my warforged shaper. Hmm...

Anyways, Midnight Augmentation, while great, only reduces the augmentation cost on Astral Construct by one, because it is limited by the level of the power. You can invest exactly 1 essentia into that, so you reduce the augment cost by 1. I wish you could make it higher, but alas. Good news is, it's switchable every day and it comes with its own essentia, so you get cheaper augmentation for the cost of a feat. Nice!

As far as I'm aware of, it reduces the cos for each augmentation by 1, not the cost of the whole power. That is, a lvl 3 construct would be 3 pp, not 4. Am I reading it wrongly and bullshitting?

[Havok4]

Now I am wondering if practiced manifester is worth it for only one lost manifester level. For two levels it is definitely worthwhile but I am not sure about taking it with the build I mentioned earlier. If I do not find any other feats to fill the last two open slots I will probably take it.

[PhaedrusXY]

Now I am wondering if practiced manifester is worth it for only one lost manifester level. For two levels it is definitely worthwhile but I am not sure about taking it with the build I mentioned earlier. If I do not find any other feats to fill the last two open slots I will probably take it.

I think it is definitely worth it. You're basically a summoner, and to compete as a summoner, you need to summon the most powerful creatures possible. Otherwise, they won't be able to do much in combat. You could instead take Overchannel (and Talented), but I'd probably take all three.