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Author Topic: It is Your Fault.  (Read 10339 times)
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Josh
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« on: March 30, 2009, 10:14:05 AM »

We bring this stuff up in today's Sode

If you are having trouble with your game, I have some good news, it's is your fault.

Why is that good news?  Because you happen to be the guy I am talking to.  You are looking, you are willing to help and you know something is out of sorts.

So you may not 100% be the problem, but you can be the guy who fixes it

1) It is your Fault

If you are having a problem in the group, you are having the problem and are therefore responsible for it in some way.  Figure out first off how to not contribute to the problem.

2) You are contributing to the Problem

If you put your mind to this task calmly and rationally, you can come up with a solution.

3) It just takes 1 person to think win-win

No one is targeting you maliciously.  No one has the motivation "I hope I can fuck up the other characters and the GM in a way they particularly hate."
That is not what is going through peoples minds.  They are striving to do something, either out of ignorance, an unmet need, boredom or because someone keeps cock blocking them.

4) people are not being jerkbags for no reason

You are playing a game with your friends.  One of the jerkiest and least useful thing you can do is threaten or level an ultimatum.  The thing is, your goal is to get back to playing.  At the very least an ultimatum will cause tension.  At the worst people are storming out and nothing is solved.  Bite your lip.  work it out.  get back to playing.

5) Making threats or ultimatums is not useful

Don't think about why you doing something was "right" you can be right or you can be playing the game.  So what if the guy did X.  Is it worth it to "get him" and not play.  (it may be, but it may not be)

6) justifications of punishment, are not worth it

One of the things we say in business is "You don't have a problem until the other guy knows about it."  What this means, is you approve of everything your co workers are doing, unless you say otherwise.  They can't read your mind.  So if the guy next to you is messy, or keeps mixing up the tool drawer.  You don't have a problem with it, unless you say something.

That might seem strange.  But you need to pick your battles.  That being said, if something bothers you say it as soon as possible, not when it is a huge deal.

7) don't let it fester

7b) You need to pick your battles - a bonus point

Actually try to solve the issue.  Don't just wait to say your point of view. 

8) don't just wait for your turn to speak
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 11:21:52 AM by Josh » Logged

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RobbyPants
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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2009, 10:20:54 AM »

For the most part, I agree with you.  I think this is very good in that it tells people to try and step back and look at the situation logically and objectively, so they don't respond with emotion.  I'd say this is a good process to advocate.

I have seen one time in one of my games where two people ganged up on another player just soley to be mean.  I suppose this can be attributed to out-of-game issues, and I think those issued came from an in-game problem from another game (I wasn't in the other game, so I don't know for sure).  So, I guess I'm not sure if this was an exception to your number four or not.  I suppose there was a reason, but it had nothing to do with the game at hand.
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2009, 09:45:54 PM »

2 and 7 can contradict.

Solutions?
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Josh
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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2009, 10:32:05 PM »

2 and 7 can contradict.

Solutions?

Don't let them?
Don't contribute to the problem and don't let the problem fester.  Maybe I don't understand the question.
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woodenbandman
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2009, 10:14:22 AM »

Sometimes the problem's not between you and person X. It's between Person X and person Y. Getting involved can add to the problem.
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Psychic Robot
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 03:19:43 AM »

Quote
1) It is your Fault

If you are having a problem in the group, you are having the problem and are therefore responsible for it in some way.  Figure out first off how to not contribute to the problem.

2) You are contributing to the Problem

If you put your mind to this task calmly and rationally, you can come up with a solution.

3) It just takes 1 person to think win-win

No one is targeting you maliciously.  No one has the motivation "I hope I can fuck up the other characters and the GM in a way they particularly hate."
That is not what is going through peoples minds.  They are striving to do something, either out of ignorance, an unmet need, boredom or because someone keeps cock blocking them.

4) people are not being jerkbags for no reason

You are playing a game with your friends.  One of the jerkiest and least useful thing you can do is threaten or level an ultimatum.  The thing is, your goal is to get back to playing.  At the very least an ultimatum will cause tension.  At the worst people are storming out and nothing is solved.  Bite your lip.  work it out.  get back to playing.

5) Making threats or ultimatums is not useful

Don't think about why you doing something was "right" you can be right or you can be playing the game.  So what if the guy did X.  Is it worth it to "get him" and not play.  (it may be, but it may not be)

6) justifications of punishment, are not worth it

One of the things we say in business is "You don't have a problem until the other guy knows about it."  What this means, is you approve of everything your co workers are doing, unless you say otherwise.  They can't read your mind.  So if the guy next to you is messy, or keeps mixing up the tool drawer.  You don't have a problem with it, unless you say something.

That might seem strange.  But you need to pick your battles.  That being said, if something bothers you say it as soon as possible, not when it is a huge deal.

7) don't let it fester

7b) You need to pick your battles - a bonus point

Actually try to solve the issue.  Don't just wait to say your point of view. 
Wow.  This is incredibly...wrong.  So wrong on so many levels.  I have played with jerkbags.  Some of them are jerkbags because they're jerkbags.  Amazingly, some people are just jerks, and they treat people poorly because they're jerks.
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emissary666
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2009, 07:24:14 AM »

It is not always your fault though. For example, if the GM is the competitive sorts. It is not your fault the GM wants to win. Or the people who do it for the "lulz", assholes who get their kicks out of ruining the game
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Josh
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2009, 10:35:03 PM »

Quote
1) It is your Fault

If you are having a problem in the group, you are having the problem and are therefore responsible for it in some way.  Figure out first off how to not contribute to the problem.

2) You are contributing to the Problem

If you put your mind to this task calmly and rationally, you can come up with a solution.

3) It just takes 1 person to think win-win

No one is targeting you maliciously.  No one has the motivation "I hope I can fuck up the other characters and the GM in a way they particularly hate."
That is not what is going through peoples minds.  They are striving to do something, either out of ignorance, an unmet need, boredom or because someone keeps cock blocking them.

4) people are not being jerkbags for no reason

You are playing a game with your friends.  One of the jerkiest and least useful thing you can do is threaten or level an ultimatum.  The thing is, your goal is to get back to playing.  At the very least an ultimatum will cause tension.  At the worst people are storming out and nothing is solved.  Bite your lip.  work it out.  get back to playing.

5) Making threats or ultimatums is not useful

Don't think about why you doing something was "right" you can be right or you can be playing the game.  So what if the guy did X.  Is it worth it to "get him" and not play.  (it may be, but it may not be)

6) justifications of punishment, are not worth it

One of the things we say in business is "You don't have a problem until the other guy knows about it."  What this means, is you approve of everything your co workers are doing, unless you say otherwise.  They can't read your mind.  So if the guy next to you is messy, or keeps mixing up the tool drawer.  You don't have a problem with it, unless you say something.

That might seem strange.  But you need to pick your battles.  That being said, if something bothers you say it as soon as possible, not when it is a huge deal.

7) don't let it fester

7b) You need to pick your battles - a bonus point

Actually try to solve the issue.  Don't just wait to say your point of view. 
Wow.  This is incredibly...wrong.  So wrong on so many levels.  I have played with jerkbags.  Some of them are jerkbags because they're jerkbags.  Amazingly, some people are just jerks, and they treat people poorly because they're jerks.

Good.  If it is so wrong it should be easy to refute.  I await your contribution.

Also I'm unclear, you quote the whole thing but only site point number 4.  So I am to take it that you agree with those points? 
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2009, 06:04:09 AM »

I have to agree that some people are just jerks, but I don't want to play with them, anyway.

Other people are attention-deficited adult children who simply CANNOT endure being out of the spotlight for even a few minutes, and immediately start acting like idiots if someone else starts doing something. These are ... not jerks, per se, but tend to act enough like jerks on many occasions to piss people off. (I admit I only know one such specimen, who, in spite of being really smart, just forgot growing up at some point. He did things like whacking other players about the head with packs of peanuts while finding this very funny indeed, and having his characters do idiotic things in game. He also just keeps butting in when other players are talking. Oh, this guy is in his mid-twenties.)

So while I think that a lot of problems are your fault, some  might need the help of a shrink to get rid of.
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Josh
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2009, 01:41:47 AM »

I have to agree that some people are just jerks, but I don't want to play with them, anyway.

Other people are attention-deficited adult children who simply CANNOT endure being out of the spotlight for even a few minutes, and immediately start acting like idiots if someone else starts doing something. These are ... not jerks, per se, but tend to act enough like jerks on many occasions to piss people off. (I admit I only know one such specimen, who, in spite of being really smart, just forgot growing up at some point. He did things like whacking other players about the head with packs of peanuts while finding this very funny indeed, and having his characters do idiotic things in game. He also just keeps butting in when other players are talking. Oh, this guy is in his mid-twenties.)

So while I think that a lot of problems are your fault, some  might need the help of a shrink to get rid of.

Again, I have taken people who supposedly had these problems and had no problems myself. 

Every time.

Every specific example has shown to be flawed.

Every one.

So far, so let's hear the first real case.

-----

Also the it's your fault concept is a device.  It allows you to solve problems rather than wringing your hands in despair. 

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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2009, 09:13:09 AM »

Something that a lot of people seem to be glossing over is why it's GOOD for the problem to be your fault.  If the problem is somebody else's fault, then there's nothing you can do except hope that they change their ways.  If you take ownership of the problem and say that there is something that you are doing wrong, or could be doing better, then you have a chance of changing something and coming to a resolution.

People are astoundingly resistant to making changes in themselves, even for the better, if the suggestion to do so comes from outside themselves.  I know I've been guilty of this myself.  But if you recognize that there is something that you can change about yourself to make the situation better, then something might actually get done.  If you go to someone and say "You're being an asshole, stop doing that" they will immediately go on the defensive and nothing will be accomplished.  If you instead say "Is there something about me, what I'm doing, or my character that is causing you to act this way?" they are much more likely to be receptive.  There's probably a better way of approaching that situation, but I'm not a sociologist.
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2009, 09:29:19 AM »

Ok, so what DO you do if this guy is accusing you of taking too long with your actions after only taking about one or two minutes?

Quote
Every specific example has shown to be flawed.

Every one.

So far, so let's hear the first real case.
I haven't been disproven. You have to do it first before you can claim it.
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2009, 10:06:36 AM »

Something that a lot of people seem to be glossing over is why it's GOOD for the problem to be your fault.  If the problem is somebody else's fault, then there's nothing you can do except hope that they change their ways.  If you take ownership of the problem and say that there is something that you are doing wrong, or could be doing better, then you have a chance of changing something and coming to a resolution.

People are astoundingly resistant to making changes in themselves, even for the better, if the suggestion to do so comes from outside themselves.  I know I've been guilty of this myself.  But if you recognize that there is something that you can change about yourself to make the situation better, then something might actually get done.  If you go to someone and say "You're being an asshole, stop doing that" they will immediately go on the defensive and nothing will be accomplished.  If you instead say "Is there something about me, what I'm doing, or my character that is causing you to act this way?" they are much more likely to be receptive.  There's probably a better way of approaching that situation, but I'm not a sociologist.
I think this is a good point, espescially from a pragmatic point of view if you're looking to make the problem go away.  It doesn't necessarily solve the problem though.  I guess it depends on what end solution you're looking for.

In some situations it can be an elegant solution to get rid of strife and let the game go on.  In others, I think you may just find yourself tolerating something you'd rather not.
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My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
Josh
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2009, 07:58:24 PM »

Ok, so what DO you do if this guy is accusing you of taking too long with your actions after only taking about one or two minutes?
what is the game and situation?  And why is he/she antsy?   

I see this when one person takes a long time, the troublemaker will snap at the next person. 

So what is the case?

Quote
Quote
Every specific example has shown to be flawed.

Every one.

So far, so let's hear the first real case.
I haven't been disproven. You have to do it first before you can claim it.
You have causality reversed.  I can easily prove that I can't think of some in game problem that can't be solved.  I do so by stating it. 

Now you posit an actual situation that cannot be solved.

It would do no good for me to list solvable situations.
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2009, 09:43:06 PM »

For Hypothetical shits and giggles, let's test out a corner case:

Dick is being a dick. He respects one player: a friend of his, but doesn't respect any of the others. He often does mean things in and out of character at the expense of the other players for cheap laughs (which his friend finds amusing). He roleplays an evil character who plays mean pranks on others and justifies the in-game behavior as roleplay. He only respects Bob a little bit because Bob is the DM. By (1), it is Bob's fault and Bob is responsible. Bob respects his players, so Bob is not contributing to the problem.

By (2), Bob spends part of his next planning time wondering what to do about Dick. He thinks the situation over and decides he doesn't want to kick Dick out without trying to work things out. By (7) he knows that he shouldn't let the problem grow and needs to act. By (6) he knows he's going to have to tell Dick in person. He asks Dick politely to be a little nicer to the players, but by (5) he doesn't do so in a threatening way.

The next session, Dick's a little nicer. But by the middle of the session after that, he's bored again and starts acting mean again. By now two of the players are saying they're on the verge of quitting the game because it's no longer fun for them, and that they'll quit the game if Dick doesn't leave it. Bob tells them to be patient and that he'll talk to Dick one more time. He asks Dick once again nicely, because by (5) Bob knows that making threats or ultimatums are pointless.

By now Dick has made the conclusion that Bob can be pushed around and that as long as he obeys Bob for a week or two before going back he's never in any real danger of being kicked out of the game. In this situation, Bob is faced with a choice: either give Dick a threat or ultimatum, or kick Dick out because the other players are about to leave the game or let Bob ruin his game. Which should he choose?
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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2009, 10:16:13 PM »

You have causality reversed.  I can easily prove that I can't think of some in game problem that can't be solved.  I do so by stating it. 

Now you posit an actual situation that cannot be solved.

It would do no good for me to list solvable situations.
Clearly because Josh can utter it, means it's true...
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Josh
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« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2009, 11:45:23 PM »

You have causality reversed.  I can easily prove that I can't think of some in game problem that can't be solved.  I do so by stating it. 

Now you posit an actual situation that cannot be solved.

It would do no good for me to list solvable situations.
Clearly because Josh can utter it, means it's true...
Yes.  Any person can declare that they cannot think of something.  If you do think of something you state it, but you cannot define an absence.

Take this as an example.  Think of a word for food.  For example snack, munchies, meal and so forth.  Now what if you can't think of something.  How do you prove it?
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« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2009, 11:55:37 PM »

Oh...for a minute there, I thought you were delving into megalomania.  I get it now.
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skydragonknight
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« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2009, 12:38:51 AM »

Now what if you can't think of something.  How do you prove it?

I actually learned something similar to this from an anime called Death Note. It's extremely hard if not impossible to prove something abstract about yourself beyond a shadow of a doubt if you have something to gain from proving it.

In fact it's much easier to eliminate doubt about something about yourself if you're not aware that such information matters and thus have no reason to lie if someone asks you.

This is roughly the same as trying to prove behavior: you can't know how a person "normally acts" if they know you're watching them and for that reason.
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Josh
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« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2009, 01:28:56 AM »

For Hypothetical shits and giggles, let's test out a corner case:

Dick is being a dick. He respects one player: a friend of his, but doesn't respect any of the others. He often does mean things in and out of character at the expense of the other players for cheap laughs (which his friend finds amusing). He roleplays an evil character who plays mean pranks on others and justifies the in-game behavior as roleplay. He only respects Bob a little bit because Bob is the DM. By (1), it is Bob's fault and Bob is responsible. Bob respects his players, so Bob is not contributing to the problem.

By (2), Bob spends part of his next planning time wondering what to do about Dick. He thinks the situation over and decides he doesn't want to kick Dick out without trying to work things out. By (7) he knows that he shouldn't let the problem grow and needs to act. By (6) he knows he's going to have to tell Dick in person. He asks Dick politely to be a little nicer to the players, but by (5) he doesn't do so in a threatening way.

The next session, Dick's a little nicer. But by the middle of the session after that, he's bored again and starts acting mean again. By now two of the players are saying they're on the verge of quitting the game because it's no longer fun for them, and that they'll quit the game if Dick doesn't leave it. Bob tells them to be patient and that he'll talk to Dick one more time. He asks Dick once again nicely, because by (5) Bob knows that making threats or ultimatums are pointless.

By now Dick has made the conclusion that Bob can be pushed around and that as long as he obeys Bob for a week or two before going back he's never in any real danger of being kicked out of the game. In this situation, Bob is faced with a choice: either give Dick a threat or ultimatum, or kick Dick out because the other players are about to leave the game or let Bob ruin his game. Which should he choose?

Where to start?
-play a game everyone is interested in
-play a good game
-Actually play that game
-Deal with the problems of the game, at the level of the game.
-be open and honest

That being said, this is not a real example.
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