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Author Topic: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons  (Read 9083 times)
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2009, 02:56:56 PM »

I'll give you this: The Spiked Chain is so good that it is worth a feat to gain proficiency in.

The problem though, it is actually a better option to take Spiked Chain Proficiency than it is to take, say, Lunging Strike (even my revised version).

Your argument is that it is bad to keep people from using the weapons they want at 1st level, simply because it is bad to not let players do what they want (I think).

My argument against would be that when an option is clearly better than any other equivalent option, just because a player wants to use it doesn't mean he or she should be allowed.

People say, "cut the spiked chain" or "make it less effective," or "make all other weapons just as effective." All can be viable options too. This is just an idea I'm exploring right now. Yes, it looks like I'm hating on the Spiked Chain, but it is easily the mechanically best option in the PHB, as well as being logically the most difficult to actually wield weapon in the PHB. Once I would get around to assigning requirements for other exotics in other books I'm sure I'd assign harsh prereqs to other weapons as well (Whip-Dagger shouldn't be all that easy to use either).
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 06:35:19 PM by bkdubs123 » Logged
veekie
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« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2009, 07:04:58 AM »

Make the weapons worth the prereqs though, is just sensible. Like for example, if it's got the same requirements as the spiked chain(worth a feat), then it should give proportionate benefits to the spiked chain. Regardless of if it 'makes sense' for that weapon to be easy or hard to wield. The monk weapons are one of those badly costed, 'because they're foreign' exotics that wouldn't stand up to a martial weapon in terms of advantages.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2009, 08:26:36 AM »

Make the weapons worth the prereqs though, is just sensible. Like for example, if it's got the same requirements as the spiked chain(worth a feat), then it should give proportionate benefits to the spiked chain. Regardless of if it 'makes sense' for that weapon to be easy or hard to wield. The monk weapons are one of those badly costed, 'because they're foreign' exotics that wouldn't stand up to a martial weapon in terms of advantages.

Right. Is the Spiked Chain worth the prereqs I gave it? I think it is. Mechanically it has huge advantages over weapons like the Dwarven Waraxe or the Double Sword. Likewise the monk weapons aren't worth shit, and don't need to be exotic at all.
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woodenbandman
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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2009, 10:06:21 AM »

The spiked chain isn't really all that effective. Especially not worth a whole feat. A Guisarme + Armor Spikes are about as good, and they don't cost feats. I agree that it has advantages over the Dwarven Waraxe and the Double Sword, but neither of those weapons are good in general.

Weapons need a bigger impact, such as bigger damage dice. Also, size increases need to be rarer.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2009, 10:32:55 AM »

Reach + Spikes is only almost as good as the chain because you can attack with armor spikes. Since that makes no logical sense to me, I've never used them, never seen them used in any game, and I would rule to a player of my games that wanted to use armor spikes that he couldn't attack with them. Perhaps if someone could convince me that the ability to attack with armor spikes is at all logical, I'd concede the point.
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woodenbandman
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« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2009, 10:43:58 AM »

Why wouldn't it be logical? You have knives attached to your body. It's like a shield bash. Or you could use the ones on your knee. It's no more illogical than a monk attacking a guy in armor (with armor spikes on it) with his foot or hand or elbow.

The problem you have with exotic weapons seems to me to be entirely logical, which has no place in the mechanics of a game where you can get free wishes for only 8k.

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Midnight_v
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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2009, 11:03:22 AM »

Why wouldn't it be logical? You have knives attached to your body. It's like a shield bash. Or you could use the ones on your knee. It's no more illogical than a monk attacking a guy in armor (with armor spikes on it) with his foot or hand or elbow.

The problem you have with exotic weapons seems to me to be entirely logical, which has no place in the mechanics of a game where you can get free wishes for only 8k.


Amen. Thats "Real life" logic at that. I'd just decided i'd as soon not argue with him.
The problem isn't that the Spiked chain is too good. Its that the other weapons... well kinda suck.
Even the EWM Prc doesn't fix it over all. You could make people not play the weapon you don't like (actually you hate it Iirc) by making it suck or you could give everyone options for playing other exwps by making them more attractive. Your pejorotive attodtude and strict "real world" approach to the situation places your objectivity in doubt, really.
 In the end though people would still use the thing they'd just build a better spiked chain build or finaagle it to be able to. What difference would that change really make but to frustrate a few early level dudes.
Bah! They have enough things to worry about besides building towards a weapon a few levels later.
Course... hey... thats just my opinion, good sir. I'm sure you have a contary one though. Good luck with the fix. M_v
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2009, 01:01:41 PM »

Why wouldn't it be logical? You have knives attached to your body.

Knives? Really?

Quote
It's like a shield bash.

Which is used when wielding a shield, and why there is the Spiked Shield.

Quote
Or you could use the ones on your knee.

Which just sounds like an unarmed attack that now deals lethal damage and is piercing.

Quote
The problem you have with exotic weapons seems to me to be entirely logical, which has no place in the mechanics of a game where you can get free wishes for only 8k.

Because everyone loves unlimited wishes! Rolls Eyes. The point is I'm making the game more balanced (er rather, I'm attempting to) which means removing the mechanics that allow you to get a free wish for 8k. That also means making options that are too strong less strong. Yes, the spiked chain is better than other weapons. If I want all weapons to be available without a feat then something has to be done with weapons that are mechanically better than all others, or I just have to make no weapons better than others at all, and say goodbye to things like the Katana, the Dwarven Waraxe, and the Spiked Chain (which seems almost lame to me).
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 01:23:54 PM by bkdubs123 » Logged
Midnight_v
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« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2009, 09:42:27 PM »

Quote
Yes, the spiked chain is better than other weapons. If I want all weapons to be available without a feat then something has to be done with weapons that are mechanically better than all others
Hmm... I see then maybe thats the wrong direction *sigh*.
Seems like spending a feat and making exotics mechanically weapons better, has more appeal.


Quote
Weapons need a bigger impact, such as bigger damage dice. Also, size increases need to be rarer.
Woodenbandman... I think you're right to a large extent.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2009, 10:00:18 PM »

]Hmm... I see then maybe thats the wrong direction *sigh*.
Seems like spending a feat and making exotics mechanically weapons better, has more appeal.

Well, I never said anything about changing the effectiveness of exotics did I? Your suggestion means that I have to rebalance all of the exotics so that they are all equally effective, and all equally worth the same feat.

Quote
Weapons need a bigger impact, such as bigger damage dice. Also, size increases need to be rarer.
Woodenbandman... I think you're right to a large extent.
[/quote]

What do you mean by "weapons need a bigger impact?"
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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2009, 10:08:45 PM »

The spiked chain isn't really all that effective. Especially not worth a whole feat. A Guisarme + Armor Spikes are about as good, and they don't cost feats. I agree that it has advantages over the Dwarven Waraxe and the Double Sword, but neither of those weapons are good in general.

Weapons need a bigger impact, such as bigger damage dice. Also, size increases need to be rarer.

Spiked chains are good for tripmonkeys, and that's pretty much IT. The damage sucks, their crit range is horrible, and reach doesn't really help anything if you can't keep someone at bay (namely by threatening and tripping with it, which - surprise! - it doesn't, either!). The good thing about them is that they're core and, between them and a whip, you're better off with them - the two require a feat to use (except for bards, who get whip proficiency for free) and the whip means you take AoOs for using it in melee. I believe it was mentioned by someone else that the monk weapons are silly for being exotic because monks are automatically proficient with them and only they benefit from those anyway, and that person is right.

Anyhoo, someone suggested elsewhere in the boards to knock exotic weapons down to martial and provide additional funcionality upon taking EWP. I think it's a good idea, personally - Fighters should be able to handle different weapons better without screwing themselves out of a feat and without having to take ranks in skills they'll likely never use (consider that most Fighters use Fullplate. What use is Balance to THEM?).
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2009, 11:37:23 PM »

Well, jeez, since there are so many more viable Fighter builds than Tripper, or Charger, or Archer (and even this last is questionable). And hey, the Spiked Chain works just as well as the Greatsword does in the Charger build.

Knocking exotics to martial is another possibility, but then the base characteristics need to be balanced against at least some of the martial weapons. I personally don't want to see every Fighter choosing the Spiked Chain over the Guisarme. And then the benefits granted by each exotic weapon through the proficiency feat need to all be worth the feat, and balanced together. But I agree this is another way to do it.

Everyone seems to be able to agree that not all Fighters should be so limited in their skill selection, and that the game shouldn't all but force Fighters to be Str based Full Plate wearers. Even aside from that 5 ranks in Balance gives the nice benefit of not being automatically flat-footed while making balance checks. And then of course is the Warlord class I designed to replace the Fighter which actually has Balance as a class skill (Not to mention my plans for giving expanded combat uses and benefits to lots of skills).

I think we can all agree that hardly any of the exotic weapons are worth a feat (except, IMO the spiked chain). I think we can all agree that if using my revised feats that none of the exotics are worth a feat (except, I'll still argue, sometimes the Spiked Chain). I am open to other suggestions of course, I was merely throwing this one out. It seems that nobody likes the idea, so let's come up with some other way to deal with exotic weapons.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 11:44:09 PM by bkdubs123 » Logged
Kuroimaken
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« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2009, 02:17:43 AM »

Quote
I think we can all agree that hardly any of the exotic weapons are worth a feat (except, IMO the spiked chain). I think we can all agree that if using my revised feats that none of the exotics are worth a feat (except, I'll still argue, sometimes the Spiked Chain). I am open to other suggestions of course, I was merely throwing this one out. It seems that nobody likes the idea, so let's come up with some other way to deal with exotic weapons.

Utterly agreed. Methinks the reason they even invented the Exotic Weapon cathegory was to lump in everything that looked slightly "off" in their concept.

I also agree that Fighters are extremely limited in what they can do, skill-wise. Their numbers are made of bullshit. Consider, say, the Cleric (which also has numbers made of bullshit): 4 skill points, hit die only slightly beneath the fighter, medium BAB, two good saves and full spellcasting. I don't think it'd kill balance something else to do with his skill points besides running a marathon.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2009, 02:25:18 AM »

Yeah, I can see what you mean about the "reason" for Exotics. That's certainly what it looks like.

Also, you have seen this right? It hasn't been updated with a new list of Combat Feats since I've revised a ton of feats, but it still works.
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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2009, 02:38:58 AM »

Yeah, I can see what you mean about the "reason" for Exotics. That's certainly what it looks like.

Also, you have seen this right? It hasn't been updated with a new list of Combat Feats since I've revised a ton of feats, but it still works.

Actually, I hadn't. I'll be sure to have a look when I've got a bit more time.
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2009, 08:38:46 AM »

Yeah, I can see what you mean about the "reason" for Exotics. That's certainly what it looks like.

Also, you have seen this right? It hasn't been updated with a new list of Combat Feats since I've revised a ton of feats, but it still works.
Nor had I... and thats pretty relavant as far as a starting point for the discussion.
 
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2009, 12:30:36 PM »

Well holy crap, that guy's been around so long I'd just assumed all of the avid homebrewers had seen him!
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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2009, 03:54:44 PM »

I for one don't check every thread on the homebrew forum, but that's just me.
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« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2009, 04:19:12 AM »

Modular weapons with Build Points was a better idea.
Exotics would have the most points and diversity but require the higher degree of investment to use without penalty.

Should I have any idea what you're talking about?
I don't know the specifics, but I think the idea is certain aspects of weapons (damage, crit threat range, crit multiplier, etc) are worth points, and you have so many points to create a weapon.  So you can increase the crit by decreasing the damage.  Exotic Weapons would have more points.

Although, this is really how the current system works; you just can't customize it on your own.

Zerosum's modular weapons. Can't find original thread. Here's repost:


Weapon Build Points
Simple +1 BP
Martial +3 BP
Exotic +5 BP

Base Damage as by Light Weapon for User’s Size
Tiny : 1d3
Small : 1d4
Medium : 1d6
Large : 1d8
Huge : 1d10

Default Critical : 20
Default Critical Multiplier : x2

Weapon Traits
Increase Damage by 1 Die Size : -2 BP
Increase Number of Dice (but reduce die size by 1) : -2 BP
Increase Critical Chance +1 : -1 BP
Increase Critical Multiplier +1 : -1 BP
Additional Damage Type (Slashing, Bludgeoning, Piercing) : -1 BP
Reach +5 feet : -1 BP
Reach Can Attack Adjacent Targets : -2 BP
Thrown (+10 feet increment, +10 again for each weapon size smaller than user’s own) : -1 BP
Trip Function : -1 BP
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2009, 08:54:40 AM »

 Big Grin
Wow I've always though about doing that never got to it! I'm so glad someone did (Zero sum)
It always irked me that I didn't have "tiger" hook swords to do what I want. Or you could'nt craft
Kyuss's weapon things like that.
I do wonder where you'd get dice types like 2d4 & 2d6 but i've not studied this fully yet.
Lets see...
SPiked chain:
Exotic +5 BP
------------
Reach +5 feet : -1 BP
Reach Can Attack Adjacent Targets : -2 BP
Trip Function : -1 BP
Increase Number of Dice (but reduce die size by 1) : -2 BP
--------------------------------------
+2 to disarm -X Bp (1?)
+ for Weapon Finesse feat to apply -X(1) Bp

----------------------------------
You still can't make a spiked chain. I'm sad i hope Zerosum comes and posts a link.... anyone?

.................in fact you don't seem to be able to make the "Greatsword" either...............

Increase Number of Dice (but reduce die size by 1) : -2 BP Should probbably be -1 then.
That way you could make the greatsword at least.




Unless... unless of course there's a different scale for "heavy weapons" I see, yes that must be it. Man, I'm really liking this more and more.

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