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Author Topic: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons  (Read 9086 times)
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SiggyDevil
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« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2009, 01:19:11 PM »

Maybe a gun that shoots guns that shoots swords.I personally count that as a 4, it's not an affront to magic, yet.

Or a weapon that attacks 5 seconds in to the past and future.

M_V: As veekie hinted, crit fumbles would not affect the trained user (and indeed they do suck; deters people from being non-casters even more!). Only people attempting to use weapons beyond their scope of power would fumble, anyone with even the smallest amount of matched training simply miss.
It's incentive to train in weapons rather than say "Oh, only a -4 penalty to hit, I'm not going to bother".

IMO the fumble limit should be an attack roll 10 lower than the target AC (for untrained users).
Users have an option of dealing their weapons damage to their self, to an ally within reach, or dropping the weapon. No charts. No fumble location roll.
They also suffer a -5 penalty to hit for each rank of training they lack which increases the occurance of fumbles. Using multiple weapons applies the greater penalty and doesn't stack.

Damage remains the same when untrained; inaccuracy and risk should be enough. This makes using weapons untrained an extremely dangerous option since it might very well kill the user in one hit (at lower levels) if a peasant character tries to swing a sword made for kings.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 01:27:38 PM by SiggyDevil » Logged

veekie
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« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2009, 02:04:05 PM »

Emphasis on some kind of Disintegration/Probability Blade for that last. A high level warrior who decided to stick with a regular longsword's got no particular hazards to it's use, though he could be so trained as to be supernaturally accurate, can bullrush on a hit, trips on a hit and get a shield bonus from it to boot. Regular longswords being proficient 2, I guess. Anyone who's proficient with simple weapons(a 1) only gets a to hit penalty.

Make sure the fumble only works if you've a proficiency of 2 or more below the minimum grade though.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2009, 06:01:19 PM »

These new ideas are starting to seem more tedious than Incarnum. We have to keep it simple since it'll be used every round of every combat.
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AlterFrom
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« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2009, 07:02:46 PM »

So...proposal: (DISCLAIMER: WIP)

1: Remove all weapons. All of them.
2: Institute BP system for creating new weapons. But don't write up any new ones. Instead, the following:
  • Feat Change(s): Weapon Proficiency (Simple, Martial, Exotic) grant a "pool" of BP. Size to be determined, but something similar to what's been laid out (2/5/8 or something). Or heck, tie it into the Weapon [Something] feat below.
  • Proficiency Changes. This is the most complicated part; instead of proficiency with weapons, you gain class proficiency with weapon abilities and some BP. Magey-types might get just weapon dice and criticals while Bruiser-types could get all of the abilities; BP is similarly biased towards Bruisers.
  • BAB-tie-in. Every so many points of BAB, you gain a certain number of BP and/or access to a certain number of weapon abilities. Basically, more BAB = more weapon options.
  • New Feat(s): Weapon [Something]. Gain BP and/or weapon ability access. Not sure which or both. Maybe other feats for really strange weapon abilities.
  • Assignment: Performed upon purchase of a "weapon". As follows:
    • "Purchase" your weapon. Weapons are priced generically, as Simple/Martial/Exotic; MW prices are unchanged, as are enchantments. Special Materials are similarly unchanged (or not, not sure). Each weapon type has a limit on BP to be assigned to it, with prices increasing accordingly.
    • Weapon groups/types. Not sure how to handle this except to offer a single (or multiple) free weapon types to assign. However, this could be abusable. Ideas? It's necessary for proper interaction with some class abilities/feats/etc.
    • Spend BP into your "weapon." You assign weapon abilities that you have access to until you run out of BP to spend. This takes [Amount of Time], and at the end of it your previous "weapon" is no longer "imbued" (Yeah, this makes almost no sense. Anyone got a better idea?).
  • New Weapon Ability: Split (X BP). Allows you to use your BP pool in another weapon. (We need a way to allow for multiple weapons at once, but not an infinite number. Unless I'm seriously overestimating the ability to have multiple weapon setups? This same sentiment actually applies to the above bullet as well).

Ex:
Tordek (a Fighter) has class access to all weapon abilities and 3 innate BP. He selects Weapon Prof (Exotic), bringing his pool to 11. He buys an exotic weapon for...I dunno, 100 gp. He assigns BP:
Weapon is Large (and thus 2H): 0 BP
Damage Die +1 size: 2 BP
Dice up, Size down: 2 BP
Crit Chance 18-20: 2 BP
Crit Mult x3: 2 BP
3 other BP.
Tordek's weapon does 2d8 damage, with a critical multiplier of 18-20/x3. It took him 100 gp and maybe a day of training to set it up.

The numbers obviously need work, but the idea is there.  Smile
Maybe Weapon Prof overlaps with your class pool, and Weapon [Something] has WP(Ex) as a pre-req?
Oh, wait, maybe Weapon Prof is granted by class up to a certain point, and grants only BP. W[Somthng] then has WP(Ex) as a pre-req.

Something else I thought of with this BP system is that it'd be a great time to get a standardize dice progression.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 07:23:23 PM by AlterFrom » Logged

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« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2009, 09:23:52 PM »

These new ideas are starting to seem more tedious than Incarnum. We have to keep it simple since it'll be used every round of every combat.

Heh. I share your concern for that. It's the inevitable fate of any ongoing contribution.

"Hey, I have this idea we could throw in too.."
"Put it in!"
and soon you have 150+ abilities to keep track of.

As for multiple BP power results from weapon hits, there should be two categories:
• Normal Hit/Critical Hit; typical mild spell effect, no save, perhaps a 1 round status effect
• Natural 20; more powerful stuff by a magnitude of about x2 output, sometimes save if the debuff would endanger a life such as Paralysis (but certainly no insta-kill)

Between those two there are many options provided when a weapon hits, but only one effect may be selected with each attack, chosen after hit confirmed.
This way we could potentially expand a weapon's options to 20-something or more but they won't have an influence in battle at the same time.

Also, the ideal I have in mind is Bleach, the quintessential swordsmanship setting.
.. well, if you leave out the Bankai transformations at least...
Warriors are quick, tough, deal with casters and archers competently, and the diverse weapons are badass.
Seriously. A katana that becomes a swarm of petals or a giant bone-snake? Sign me up.


AlterFrom: On the matter of die type changes, I believe that not many gamers actively remember or understand that (on an average) 1d6+1 is about the same as 1d8, if not better.
Perhaps rather than bumping up or down die types we could start with a basic type according to weapon size and then increase multiples according to training ranks.

For instance, Swords 2 grants +2d8 dice on a 1d8 sword, and +2d10 on a 1d10 sword.
This wouldn't cost anything beyond the feats used to train. No BP needed.
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veekie
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« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2009, 10:42:01 PM »

Quote
Ex:
Tordek (a Fighter) has class access to all weapon abilities and 3 innate BP. He selects Weapon Prof (Exotic), bringing his pool to 11. He buys an exotic weapon for...I dunno, 100 gp. He assigns BP:
Weapon is Large (and thus 2H): 0 BP
Damage Die +1 size: 2 BP
Dice up, Size down: 2 BP
Crit Chance 18-20: 2 BP
Crit Mult x3: 2 BP
3 other BP.
Tordek's weapon does 2d8 damage, with a critical multiplier of 18-20/x3. It took him 100 gp and maybe a day of training to set it up.
Could save a good bit for work in play by writing up some 'standard' base weapons, the sort militia typically deal in. AKA the SRD weapons. Prespent BPs up to the 3rd level of proficiency, after that, you're basically inventing whatever weapon style you're happy with.

Speaking of which, I assume we're folding ranged weapons into this? The ability to wire-fu thrown weapons at the 4th(or more) level of proficiency so they return without need for the returning enchantment lets throwers be more than mad bombermen/shuriken chucker/hulking hurler/bloodstorm blade. You'd actually get some 'traditional' throwers back in play, since their mundane weapons are preenhanced to a certain degree by skill..
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SiggyDevil
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« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2009, 11:12:41 PM »

Speaking of which, I assume we're folding ranged weapons into this? The ability to wire-fu thrown weapons at the 4th(or more) level of proficiency so they return without need for the returning enchantment lets throwers be more than mad bombermen/shuriken chucker/hulking hurler/bloodstorm blade. You'd actually get some 'traditional' throwers back in play, since their mundane weapons are preenhanced to a certain degree by skill..

Why of course. I love Gauntlet.
OTOH you can also do animu-style weapons blasting, slamming, or slicing wide area shapes with slashes and bashes.
Essentially the same thing, mechanically. More of a thematic change although it does remove the question "What if the enemy catches my weapon?"

Case in point; "Getsuga".

http://images.google.com/images?q=getsuga

So you have these options for melee-rangeds, perhaps more:
• Thrown and returning
• Thrown and teleports back
• Thrown, but a copy leaves the weapon rather than the original
• Area Effect
• Projectile from weapon (energy or solid force)
• Single distant point is treated as being 'in melee' for each attack, nothing is shot
• Long extended reach
• Attack through small dimensional rift
• Air shockwave from power of a swing
They do the same thing, aside from Area, Projectile, and Reach having a better thematic tie-in for harming more than one target in the same attack.

Fitting 'shooting' ranged weapons might be a tad more difficult since enhanced crit or damage totally breaks encounters.
Reason: multiple arrow shots, far more than melee attacks, per round.
At a distance.
With no risk to the offense, while defense suffers a hail of metal.

I'm thinking that ranged attacks should have a penalty of about 25% accuracy loss, or melee gets that much (+4) bonus, to make entering melee even worthwhile.
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veekie
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« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2009, 11:54:25 PM »

Thats just a math issue then, you just need to cost ranged attacks appropriately. Big Grin
Flavor being mutable, screw what it looks like, an area attack is an area attack. But I figure those mostly come in at proficiency 4-6, though I suppose since alchemist's fire and other such small burst grenades can also be designed with BP, just need to cost area attacks effectively.

Multi mode weapons could be designed with each side independently, so a dagger is built as both a ranged(thrown) and melee weapon, with an X BP cost to buy dual mode. Or would it be preferable to have the less complex, but also slightly less flexible purchasing of the 'ranged(thrown)', 'ranged(ammo)' or 'melee' quality at a fixed cost, for a particular starting range increment for the former two?

A couple of ways, mathematically.
One is to make range increments cost more, hence a high range weapon starts with low BP. This screws over low level archery types, and depending on the number of build points available.

Another is to make range increments BP cost a multiplier to the ranged functions of the weapon(assuming you have things like swordbows). So damage costs more for a 100ft range increment than a 30ft  range increment than a melee range. This makes thrown weapons like daggers somewhat tricky to cost, as a 10ft range increment is only marginally better than Reach in terms of range.

Theres also making a flat cost multiplier apply for ammunition weapons only, a thrower has the same number of attacks available as melee without taking Master Thrower. This looks to be the smoothest solution. In exchange, throwers who don't buy either returning, or have quick draw can't pour out the same kind of attack rate. Mitigation in the form of increased weapon load time is available, which can be remitigated via feats.

Also:
Ditch the max range entirely, since it's naturally derived from the range increment and the wielder's attack bonus. He can only hit something at such a range before the increments and the various concealment/cover modifiers accrued from the distance add up.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #68 on: April 09, 2009, 01:00:00 AM »

Damn sleep getting to me... can't... make... constructive criticism...
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« Reply #69 on: April 09, 2009, 01:07:40 AM »

Archery weapons (along with guns, etc) would be nerfed simplest with lower base BP.

With character advancement the personal pool of BP would catch up quickly though.

IMO bumping up the BP cost by 1 for everything would work best, for now.
Not so sure about any hybrid modes or individual BP per type.
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« Reply #70 on: April 09, 2009, 01:29:49 AM »

Or as you put it, veek, cost the ammo weapons for their incremental shooting ranges.

Shoot Range 30ft : BP -1
Shoot Range 60ft : BP -2
and maybe
Shoot Range 90ft : BP -3

Anything more would need to be restricted to higher levels, but with the advantage of a reduced cost.

Melee/Thrown ones all get a base of 10 feet by default and would probably be better off with a non-stacking better upgrade of distance at benchmark levels, rather than multiply base values.

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« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2009, 02:40:46 AM »

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=694416

I just found what I think might be where this points system for weapons may have first been posted.
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JaronK
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« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2009, 02:53:00 AM »

That system says the Sai is overpowered.  I don't buy it.

EDIT:  Didn't notice someone put the actual system in there later down in the thread.

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SiggyDevil
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« Reply #73 on: April 14, 2009, 02:59:01 AM »

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=694416

I just found what I think might be where this points system for weapons may have first been posted.


Not the same as Zerosum's. and I believe both concepts were derived without shared information which would put greater success in the similar results.
If we compare all versions (yes, all, including any more found) we could probably reach a more accurate perspective on how the values interact.

Still, it's good to start with the basics provided by PHB, but balance just doesn't work when you consider the value of a single feat placed in Exotic WP or even the investment of a whole Martial class for the proficiency.
It has to count for something in combat, hence my push for greater point totals in MWP and EWP....
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« Reply #74 on: May 05, 2009, 11:46:59 AM »

So after rebalancing feats and spells I decided something needed to be done with Exotic Weapons. They are just never worth taking a feat for, or if they are the weapon just ends up being too good. So I mulled the idea over, and I couldn't come up with any direction to go in, but then I brought it up to a friend who immediately thought to give Exotic Weapons requirements, like feats have, in order to wield them.
I think it's an excellent idea. I was thinking this over a bit last night, after reading this thread, and I came up with a few ideas:

Keep all exotic weapons as "exotic", but in this case, "exotic" means "martial weapons that have extra abilities that require additional training".

Ditch the EWP feat, and assign prereqs to all exotic weapons.

Anyone who can use martial weapons can use exotic weapons, but without the prereqs, you can't use the additional benefits (or suffer a penalty when wielding it, as applicable).

So then we have...

Bastard Sword - Requirements: Str 13. Benefit: Can wield it one-handed.

Bolas: Str 13, Dex 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty.

Crossbow, hand: Dex 13, Int 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty. You can also load it with one hand.

Crossbow, repeating: Dex 15. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty.

Dire flail: Str 15. Benefit: You can use this weapon as a double weapon.

Dwarven Urgrosh: Dwarf and Str 13, OR Str 15. Benefit: You can use this as a double weapon (otherwise you're limited to using it as a long-handled waraxe).

Dwarven Waraxe: Dwarf, or Str 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty (it's an unbalanced weapon, heavy toward the head).

Gnome hooked hammer: Gnome and Dex 13 OR Str 13, Dex 13. Benefit: You can use this as a double weapon (otherwise you're limited to using the weapon as a hammer only, dealing 1d8 bludgeoning).

Kama: Shouldn't be exotic. It's nothing more than a modified sickle, with exactly the same stats. I would actually nerf the sickle's damage to 1d4, since it's not designed to be used as a weapon, and this would make the kama a better choice.

Net: Dex 13, Wis 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty and it takes twice as long to fold. Another weapon that shouldn't be exotic, but nets are hard to use properly - if you don't throw it right, it won't spread out and catch someone.

Nunchaku: Dex 15. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty. (I'm thinking about adding some ability to entangle/disarm; I've seen it many times in movies, where the martial artist wraps the nunchaku around a weapon or the opponent's hand/arm, but I'm not sure how to make it work in D&D terms).

Orc Double Axe: Str 15 OR Orc and Str 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty.

Sai: Str 13, Dex 13. Benefit: You gain the bonus to disarm attempts.

Shuriken: Shouldn't be exotic. They're thrown weapons that deal 1d2 damage - whoopdedoo. Make them martial and have done with it.

Siangham: Dex 13. Benefit: Confused. I'm honestly unsure what to do with this thing, since I have no idea what a siangham IS, beyond what I can see from the picture. It looks like nothing more than a hand-held dart. Maybe it enables you to throw it as a dagger?

Spiked chain: Dex 15. Benefit: Can use the chain to make trip/entangle attacks. (On a side note, if you drop the chain's damage to 1d6, it becomes perfectly balanced via either of the value systems posted above.)

Two-bladed sword: Should not be an exotic weapon - all it is, is a staff with blades on both ends. If we use the percentage pricing system, removing the exotic tag would give it a value of 105%, at the high end of balanced. Nerfing the damage to 1d6 (which might not be a bad idea) would put it back at 100%.

Whip: Dex 13. Benefit: You can make trip/entangle attacks. (The requirement is lower here because whips deal less damage.)
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« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2009, 03:16:30 PM »

Shuriken: Shouldn't be exotic. They're thrown weapons that deal 1d2 damage - whoopdedoo. Make them martial and have done with it.

I don't know how much it matters to everyone, but I thought the thing here is that you can flurry with it (probably even two-handed), as a special monk weapon, and if they're enchanted you can actually manage a large amount of damage because I think they are a free action to draw, like ammo or something like that since I'm AFB.
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« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2009, 04:52:57 PM »

Shuriken: Shouldn't be exotic. They're thrown weapons that deal 1d2 damage - whoopdedoo. Make them martial and have done with it.

I don't know how much it matters to everyone, but I thought the thing here is that you can flurry with it (probably even two-handed), as a special monk weapon, and if they're enchanted you can actually manage a large amount of damage because I think they are a free action to draw, like ammo or something like that since I'm AFB.

Technically, the good thing about the shuriken is that it counts as ammo, and thus it's easy to enchant. Flurry technically doesn't apply to it because a monk can only use flurry with melee weapons - stupid, I know, but there you have it.
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« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2009, 01:49:55 AM »

Technically, the good thing about the shuriken is that it counts as ammo, and thus it's easy to enchant. Flurry technically doesn't apply to it because a monk can only use flurry with melee weapons - stupid, I know, but there you have it.
Technically, it specifically states you can flurry with shuriken. Smile There's nothing in there about melee weapons, just a list of what you can use. I tend to agree with you, but they're so minor (and really, every ninja movie you see has them flinging shuriken around) that it's not a big deal.
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« Reply #78 on: June 28, 2009, 11:25:03 AM »

Technically, the good thing about the shuriken is that it counts as ammo, and thus it's easy to enchant. Flurry technically doesn't apply to it because a monk can only use flurry with melee weapons - stupid, I know, but there you have it.
Technically, it specifically states you can flurry with shuriken. Smile There's nothing in there about melee weapons, just a list of what you can use. I tend to agree with you, but they're so minor (and really, every ninja movie you see has them flinging shuriken around) that it's not a big deal.
That's what I get for posting while AFB.  Tongue
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« Reply #79 on: June 28, 2009, 09:36:24 PM »

Technically, the good thing about the shuriken is that it counts as ammo, and thus it's easy to enchant. Flurry technically doesn't apply to it because a monk can only use flurry with melee weapons - stupid, I know, but there you have it.

Technically, it specifically states you can flurry with shuriken. Smile There's nothing in there about melee weapons, just a list of what you can use. I tend to agree with you, but they're so minor (and really, every ninja movie you see has them flinging shuriken around) that it's not a big deal.

So, I was right on the whole? That doesn't really happen a lot, but yeah, I think we can agree then that as a monk weapon, TWFing, flurried, free action to draw, easily enchanted makes the shuriken likely worth some exotic pre-reqs to be used that way. Can Rapid Shot/Many Shot/similar feats also be added in and used in conjunction with some combination of these other features? Then again, if someone apparently has to meet so many requirements already simply to be able to do all that in the first place... are there really any pre-reqs to add? Probably not... maybe it was a moot point from the start...
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