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Author Topic: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons  (Read 8817 times)
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Skip Sandwich
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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2009, 09:50:33 PM »

yup, the greatsword is a large weapon so you'd start at base damage 1d8, -2bp to change that to 2d6, then -1bp to make 19-20/x2 critical
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« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2009, 10:25:37 PM »

Then thats a damn good rubric.
One of the best fixes I've seen.
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« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2009, 10:45:37 PM »

I don't understand what that fixes. It makes making weapons easier, for damn sure, but how does it do anything about the problem of exotics not being worth a feat?
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« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2009, 11:14:31 PM »

M_V: Correct
Zero claimed to retro-engineer these point values from weapon values straight out of the PHB, which is entirely possible, but it seems the imbalance is actually due to the fact that no similar process was used by the 3e creators!!!

A possibly correction would be to bump the points up across the board, with each further category as a multiple of the previous, if not a multiple and then 1-2 more. Got to make it worth those extra feats.
For instance:
Simple +2 BP
Martial +5 BP (2 x2 +1)
Exotic +8 BP (2 x3 +2)


Weapon maximum BP could even scale with character level.
Otherwise, the warrior itself could gain weapon traits applicable to everything they wield (like similar feats but better since, well, weapon feats tend to suck)

In all it doesn't even overpower many encounters since PCs are fighting monsters with far better natural weapons and defenses, as well as spells that ignore such weapons or even destroy them outright.
One could rework the spells to match suckier weapons, but I'd rather boost the weapons than nerf spells that far down.

Taken a step further results in modular weapons with enhancements straight out of the DMG.
For instance, Shock or Flaming.
I suggest calculating such special effects compared to spells used by characters of the same level rather than their seemingly arbitrated "enhancement bonus".

Martial weapons would then have a discount to magical enhancements, and exotics a similar yet greater discount.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 11:26:02 PM by SiggyDevil » Logged

bkdubs123
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« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2009, 11:33:51 PM »

Ah, so the point then would be that there really are no "martial" or "exotic" weapons. There are simply weapons, and the character's skill with the weapon determines how effective it is? So, that full BAB characters wielding a longsword can do more things with their longswords than other non-warrior classes? Because I actually really like that idea. The more BAB a character has the more of these BP that character has, to spend how they wish with any weapon they wield... each character uses their weapons in whatever capacity they want... It's an interesting concept for sure.
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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2009, 11:40:30 PM »

Ah, so the point then would be that there really are no "martial" or "exotic" weapons. There are simply weapons, and the character's skill with the weapon determines how effective it is? So, that full BAB characters wielding a longsword can do more things with their longswords than other non-warrior classes? Because I actually really like that idea. The more BAB a character has the more of these BP that character has, to spend how they wish with any weapon they wield... each character uses their weapons in whatever capacity they want... It's an interesting concept for sure.

AND it actually values BAB as something more than a static, pseudo-unalienable to-hit bonus and PrC/feat qualifying stat.

I really like that idea.
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« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2009, 11:42:31 PM »

Yes. This certainly has LOTS of potential. This plus weapons groups = liquid gold.
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« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2009, 11:46:53 PM »

Wow that was funny. I started to doze off and I read the title of this thread and saw "Rebalancing Erotic Weapons" How could we do that?
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« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2009, 11:54:14 PM »

Ah, so the point then would be that there really are no "martial" or "exotic" weapons. There are simply weapons, and the character's skill with the weapon determines how effective it is? So, that full BAB characters wielding a longsword can do more things with their longswords than other non-warrior classes? Because I actually really like that idea. The more BAB a character has the more of these BP that character has, to spend how they wish with any weapon they wield... each character uses their weapons in whatever capacity they want... It's an interesting concept for sure.

Where would you put the BP?

In the character so that everything they wield has similar advantages
OR
In the weapons they use (applying a penalty to characters with insufficient BAB to use such a BP-loaded weapon)
OR
Perhaps both, half and half or similar ratio.

I'd go with the mix, leaning more towards the character's ability than weapon, by 75% PC to 25% weapon.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2009, 12:17:07 AM »

Well, I'm thinking there would no longer be simple or martial weapons, there would simply be weapons groups, with a few weapons in each of them, balanced against each other, with 3 BP in the weapons themselves. There is of course Weapons Groups proficiencies, and warrior types get more groups than anyone else, and then as a character gains BAB they gain "BP." Probably equivalent to their BAB. For each weapon they are proficient with they get to build their own capabilities with that weapon. Weapon Focus can even grant bonus "BP" for this purpose.

Two people with full BAB might use their Longsword in two different ways. Another person with medium BAB uses a Longsword, but they can't use it as well. A person with poor BAB might have the Swords Group proficiency, but they don't use their Longsword any better than a Commoner would.
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veekie
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« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2009, 12:22:52 AM »

This is a very good basis.

Going with weapon groups, hand out multiple levels of proficiency.(maybe 6? 7?, after the 3rd one the higher levels is basically semi magical levels of skill already). Every weapon has it's own little table of things you can do with it at higher levels of skill, some weapons have a certain minimum number of traits(e.g. spiked chain and polearms must have reach, as well as a certain damage minimum, regardless of proficiency, this is countered by having penalties at lower level of proficiency than 3 overcoming it's 'pluses')
Entirely unproficient is level 0, this is where you are liable to hit yourself with the thing or suffer a big penalty to hit, depending on how big a gap you have to the weapon's minimum useable proficiency.
Simple weapon level proficiency is level 1, in which you take a weapon and attempt to place the pointy end into someone by means of a vigorous arm movement. Martial weapons wielded with this get some penalties, and some exotics are still likely to hit yourself with the damaging end.
Martial weapon level proficiency is level 2, army trained level, simple weapons wielded with this get additional attributes, generally better damage or to-hit, though flexible things like quarterstaffs may get additional modes of use. Exotics just give penalties at this point, they're unwieldy, but not 'hit yourself' unwieldy.
Exotic weapon level proficiency is level 3, you can do various stunts with martial and simple weapons, some of the two handed ones likely can grant a shield bonus to AC even. Exotics come in without penalty here.
For the next 3 steps, you can put freakier weapons, weapons that wouldn't even be useable at all IRL(say, maybe the dire flail), and keep granting bonus abilities to the simpler weapons.

One weapon can do all those things, but the wielder needs to have the appropriate skill level in that sort of weapon.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2009, 12:37:33 AM »

Everyone +fu Siggy for the base idea, and explaining it's potential to me so that I had any idea how it might be used.
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SiggyDevil
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« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2009, 12:41:41 AM »

Another application might be for spellcasters using traditional mage items such as wand and staff (screw orb, seriously, 4e went down some weird paths..)

The mage items would be like anything from "metamagic rods" to "keep duration of a spell group active as long as held and conscious" to "add Y or Z effect to spell group", all for BP.
This would benefit gish/spellsword archetype greatlyas well since they could then acquire BP traits of both mage and warrior items.

bkdub: Thanks, I don't get that much lately since I've been inactive due to work and school for a while...
You should get some too since you've pretty much steered this thread.
Zerosum also deserves credit for his labors in BP weapons.
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« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2009, 01:29:54 AM »

One weapon can do all those things, but the wielder needs to have the appropriate skill level in that sort of weapon.

And what happens if they lack skill?
Weapon is 'mundane' in their hands?
Deals less damage?
Less accurate?
Injures them on miss?
Higher incidence of critical fumble?
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veekie
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« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2009, 01:45:42 AM »

Depending on the exact weapon and how bad the lack of skill, a longsword is mundane(low hit bonus or whatnot), but a spiked chain is going to whack the proficient 0-1 wielder on his own head on a 1(on top of to hit penalties). Someone who's got at least proficient 2(assuming you need 3 to wield a spiked chain properly) would only suck at it, but not engage in self pwn.
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The mind transcends the body.
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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
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« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2009, 02:43:10 AM »

What about combining this theoretical system with the one I mentioned in this post?

This is an idea I was toying around with while 4E was in development and I was working on the TC/RPG project here, but I'd like to see it used properly. Basically, weapons have special abilities that are granted to them based on their type (Simple, Martial, Exotic). You don't count effects like Ranged, Finessed, or Reach, but things like Trip-compatible or 4E's Brutal quality.

In example, this would be the Greataxe using this idea:

Greataxe: Two-Handed, Martial. 1d12, x3 Crit. Special Qualities: Surging, Powerful Blow, Intimidating.

Then this would be the effects listed above:

Surging: Each hit from this weapon allows you to make a Bull Rush as part of the attack. Each time you deal damage to an opponent with a weapon that has the Surging quality during an attack action or full attack action, make a Bull Rush check (as per Page XX of the PHB). If you succeed, the target is pushed backwards, and you may move adjacent to it as a free action. You may move up to double your base land speed in this way. If you fail the check, your opponent does not gain any advantage over you.

Powerful Blow: Each hit from this weapon is devastating to it's victim, reducing their ability to dodge future attacks. Each time you successfully deal damage to an opponent with an attack action using this weapon, the target takes a -1 penalty to AC. This penalty is cumulative, to a maximum penalty equal to the targets Dexterity modifier (to a minimum of 1, if the target does not have a positive Dexterity modifier or a Dex score of 10/11).

Intimidating: Simply drawing this weapon unnerves your opponents. At the beginning of the encounter, you may attempt to demoralize all opponents who can see you as a free action. Any opponent demoralized in this way is shaken until the end of the encounter or until you are unconscious, whichever comes first. In addition, you may demoralize any enemy who has an unblocked line of sight to you, rather than enemies you threaten in melee.


(Also, it would be a good idea to change the text of demoralize so that it doesn't stack, as you can cause an enemy to panic just by using Intimidate).


A simple weapon would have a default of 1 ability, a martial weapon has a default of 3 abilities, and an exotic weapon has a default of 5 abilities. Special materials, augment crystals, weapon templates, and weapon modifications would all grant additional special abilities like the ones above.
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veekie
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« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2009, 05:19:35 AM »

Those look like good stuff to attach to higher proficiencies, especially the not entirely human proficiency levels above 3.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
Midnight_v
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« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2009, 08:43:50 AM »

I don't like the critical fumble things.
Warrior types have enough shit to worry about. Actually "MISSING" is bad enough when you're fighting a bear. Having nunchuck whack you in the balls accidentaly is just shitty.

My thing is this. We should not make it prohibitive to use any weapon. Period.
No punishment required.
Negative reinforcement come from when you see the things a "fighter"(type) is doing.

Also it has to be a special thing too. Kind of like "Skill ranks". All the spells in the world and magic items and only a few artifacts actually give you "Ranks" in a skill.
If you tie it to Bab it has to be specific that it doesn't increase with magical enhancements to bab.

So who's played Elder Scrolls: Oblivion?
You can magically augment your strength or your ability with a blade to do more damage, but you still don't get the abilities that come with it. Which are Iirc. Disarms, knockdowns, and finally a paralysis effect.

Though frankly, going in this direction isn't really a "rebalance" of exotic weapons, but a "Re-write" of the weapons system en masse. Just sayin'

Those look like good stuff to attach to higher proficiencies, especially the not entirely human proficiency levels above 3.


Again I'm reminded of the Limit Soilder/Limit Knight that someone on wotc came up with. The weapons that grow with you.
If I can find a repost I will or if anyone has it quick saved. He had a "Trait" system for the class which was basically "magic" weapon enhancement as a class, but seems almost a natural extension of what Zero sum wrote. Goes a little futher but the idea is sound for magic weapons at least.
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« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2009, 09:13:47 AM »

Well, the fumble thing exists for an example, solely because some weapons start with a certain number of bonuses, and the nonproficient penalty level of 0 would only exist for a wizard anyway. Anyone with an All Simple Weapons clause will be getting reduction in functions(damage crapped, accuracy crapped) instead. Anyone proficient with all martial weapons would be getting at worst a to hit penalty with an exotic weapon.

Well, unless theres some weird ass minumum proficiency 6 weapon, which is likely an affront to the laws of physics, magic and common sense at the same time. Maybe a gun that shoots guns that shoots swords.I personally count that as a 4, it's not an affront to magic, yet.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
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« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2009, 01:01:08 PM »

Again I'm reminded of the Limit Soilder/Limit Knight that someone on wotc came up with. The weapons that grow with you.
If I can find a repost I will or if anyone has it quick saved. He had a "Trait" system for the class which was basically "magic" weapon enhancement as a class, but seems almost a natural extension of what Zero sum wrote. Goes a little futher but the idea is sound for magic weapons at least.


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